Why the polarised views on Dempsey?

You are right, I forgot about him. One of Jack's best wins, but at the same time, Sharkey also lost to Bud Gorman (who?) and Johnny Risko during that period. He was very inconsistent, and as you mention, the win was rather controversial.

Trainers are not Gods, they're men and as every man, they have their own bias. Here is another quote for you: "Vitali Klitschko is one of greatest boxers I've ever witnessed". From an all time great trainer as well. Is Vitali Klitschko now cemented as being a top5 HW of all time because a great trainer thought so? Should we just stop thinking for ourselves?

There have been several threads about this subject already. I don't have time to look into it now. Off the top of my head it was about Gibbons and Brennan. Greb was beating them left and right but was left without a title fight, while the champ could of course make time for soft touches like Carpentier and a terminally ill Miske.

I stand corrected!

That was hardly Louis' fault though, he went to serve in the war. He didn't sit on his throne and make movies.

Which is a lot more than those historians were. Yes, they may have seen the odd fight of Dempsey live. A great experience, but by no means a great study. You are far away from the ring, see only one angle, no repeats... and do you honestly believe that a human being is capable of remembering an observed sporting event for 20+ years, to make a sincere comparison when watching viewing Joe Louis decades later? Several psychological researches have shown that human memory is very unrealiable and over time gets blurred by personal views as well as general distortion.

I've read several accounts of Dempsey being knocked out by Flynn, reported by eye-witnesses years later. Guess what? Their descriptions are completely different. One has Dempsey down three times, continuing to get up but stopped on his feet. The other has Dempsey out cold for minutes after the first punch, a right hand. The other had them exchanging punches for a minute until a left hook put Dempsey down. You get the point. Even myself I'm sometimes surprised when re-watching a fight that I haven't seen in a year and seeing the knockout different then I remember it to be. And that's with slow-motion replay from 4 different angles.

OLD FOGEY stated that Dempsey's footage was mostly unavailable at watchable speeds until the 70's. Again, they did not have the luxury of making objective comparisons.

I see Greb and Wills their records and they ****, **** and puke all over Firpo and Willard's resumes, so I think it's fair to say they were a bit more skilled.

Again, refer to what I stated above. They did not have great observational methods or context at all. The fact that many ranked Dempsey over Louis in accomplishments just shows their complete disconnect or ignorance towards fight records.

You needn't look for to see statements about how great and unbeatable Tyson was in the 90's or even now. Or the Klitschko's. Does that make them the greatest?

 

By that same standard, Sonny Liston fought nobody in his class aside from Clay/Ali.

I don't know.
Any answer would depend entirely of whose rating you choose to use.

 

PP, see how facts are distorted to fit an agenda ! Harry Greb did pick Gene Tunney to beat Jack Dempsey...But you fail to mention the Jack Dempsey who as we know,did not fight in over THREE YEARS. The Dempsey,Harry Greb
was talking about was a slow, past peak shell of his glory days ...Would you also call the Sugar Ray Robinson of the Ralph Tiger Jones fight, the REAL Ray Robinson .? No... Would you call Ali of the Spinks fight,or the Holmes fight,
the real Ali ? No you would not! So why to prove a point about the ineptitude
of Jack Dempsey, you cite Harry Greb picking a prime razor-sharp Gene Tunney,to lick an old shot pail image of the prime Jack Dempsey? Why does an Ali, Robinson, Louis get a pass, but Jack Dempsey is always defiled,as the old past prime Dempsey ? Because,I believe he is despised by many posters
who always put him in a bad light. There is no disputing this fact...
P.S. And the Gene Tunney of 1927 would have licked the past peak Ali, hands down,also...Cheers...

 

Men who watched the fights and fighters week in, week out, for years, hung out in gyms and training camps, and at ringside. The writers, trainers, managers, and gym owners (such as Lou Stillman) - to say we have a better grasp than these people due to our "resources" is insane.

I'm not talking about faded and exaggerated memories, I'm talking about a consistent ranking of Dempsey from his time onwards. And in the context of being around thousands of fighters and recognizing talent and super-talent as it emerges.
Dempsey's "greatness", his phenomenal talent, was grasped early on, like Tyson's. It wasn't something cooked up years later.

I've seen the films too. And Dempsey looks special, as they said he was.

Their records against fighters you've mostly not even seen.
Willard beat Jack Johnson, something I wouldn't assume Greb or Wills capable of.

 

This is one heck of an interesting debate.

 

OK, how are you working out this class thing ?
It's a rating based on what exactly ?

You say : Ali is outside Liston's class.
But Patterson is possibly in Liston's class.

Yet we could argue (I wouldn't necessarily) that Liston outclassed Patterson as bad as, or more than, Clay outclassed Liston.
If you wanted to. I'm not sure anyone outclassed anyone.

Dempsey and Tunney are in the same class.
Why aren't Willard and Dempsey in the same class then ?
Even Fred Fulton could be in Dempsey's class, like Patterson could be in Liston's class.

I think Patterson was very good.
I've been too harsh on him at times perhaps.

Yep.

No. I just don't have a definitive answer.
The question : how many great HW champions NEVER fought their #1 contender? EVER?

RING magazine didn't even put out their ratings until 1924, if we were to accept theirs as gospel, (they were merely Nat Fleischer's opinion) so it's difficult before then to just go and look it up. Unless of course we go about some retrospective quest to compile our own ratings - which could end up a variety of permeations.

So, straight off, we have a task of our own for every champion Sullivan to Dempsey, then after that we have the issue of whether the RING (and later NYSAC, NBA, WBA, WBA etc.) should be followed or questioned.
And, frankly, ratings are a bit boring.

 

Luf, they deny Dempsey was great, because WANT to believe this nonsense .
"SCREW" the opinions of great boxing writers, fighters, trainers, who saw Dempsey. Their "I KNOW BETTER" attitude, is not to be taken seriously, for if
historians of the past are not to be believed, what is the sense of our historic past...?
The only Dempsey fights they have see are
1-Dempsey's annihilation of Jess Willard in 3rds. Seven knockdowns in 1st rd
Joe Louis hit big Abe Simon with everything, but Simon lasted 13rds. No
lumbering Simon lasts past 2 rounds with prime Dempsey...
2-Bill Brennan- Dempsey ko 12 rds.
3-Georges Carpentier- Dempsey ko,4 rds,after Promoter Rickard told Jack
"let the crowd have a few rds".
4-Tommy Gibbons-a great underated boxer who was on a kayo streak,and
did everything to last the 15 rds. Dempsey won 11rds for a decision.
5- Luis Angel Firpo- A powerful crude puncher,who hurt the overconfident Dempsey ,but Dempsey stretched Firpo in the second round with a blurring
one-two punch,almost too fast to be seen by the camera...
After this last fight Dempsey,went Hollywood, got hitched, lost his mentor
Jack Kearns, and did not fight for THREE YEARS, until an old and rusty
Dempsey,without a tune-up bout foolishly tackled a prime Gene Tunney
So, Luf,in his prime Dempsey beat everyone of his opponents. He was at that time considered along with the defensive wizzard Jack Johnson the best
heavyweight in history. I truly feel as most boxing historians asserted that
the peak Jack Dempsey's unique arsenal of blazing handspeed, vicious
two-handed power,bobbing and weaving defense, with an innate toughness,
would be more than a match for any heavyweight after...And i am not ALONE.
Cheers Luf.:hi:

 

Get ya popcorn ready! op