Does Mike Tyson belong in the top ten greatest heavyweights of all time

I'd put Tyson above Liston but not Rocky or Dempsey.

 

Gene Tunney, Bert Sugar's #13 greatest boxer ever in the same book i speak of above

 

:yep

 

So if there have been around 1000 heavyweight boxers in the history of boxing - that would put Tyson around no 101

 

Couple of reasons that comes to mind.

Reason 1. Lennox 16 championship match victories (15 if you count first Evander fight as a real draw). Wlad has 10 victories in championship matches.
Reason 2. Lennox actually unified all the championships. (Something Wlad has failed to do)
Reason 3. Lennox had 14 successful title defences. Wlad has nine
Reason 4. Lennox defeated 10 different former or future world champions. Wlad has defeated six
Reason 5. Lennox has victories over three all time greats. (Tyson, Holyfield x2, Vitali). Wlad has none
Reason 6. Lennox has beaten better fighters, than Wlad has.
Reason 7. Lennox has beaten every opponent he ever faced. Wlad hasn’t.
Reason 8. Lennox is three time world champion. Wlad is one time.
Reason 9. Lennox has won 6 major championship belts in his career. So far Wlad has won two.
Reason 10. Lennox had 8 successful defences of ring magazines championship. Wlad has defended it twice.
Reason 11. Lennox looks overall better fighter than Wlad. (Of course you might disagree with this)

 

I have him at #12
Right behind vander

Oh and u can see my top 25 here.
1) Joe Louis
2) Muhammad Ali
3) Larry Holmes
4) Rocky Marciano
5) George Foreman
6) Jack Johnson
7) Lennox Lewis
8) Jack Dempsey
9) Harry Wills
10) Joe Frazier
11) Evander Holyfield
12) Mike Tyson
13) Wladimir Klitschko
14) Sonny Liston
15) Jim Jeffries
16) Sam Langford
17) Joe Walcott
18) Ezzard Charles
19) Max Schmeling
20) John L Sullivan
21) Gene Tunney
22) Riddick Bowe
23) Ingo Johamsson
24) Sam Mcvea
25) Joe Jeanette

 

^
Awful list.

Mine:
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Marciano
5. Lewis
6. Holyfield
7. Liston
8. Foreman
9. Tyson
10. Frazier

 

That's a good list.:good

 

Go back and rework your math. Wlad already has 16 Championship match wins as well. That's already 1 more than Lewis had in his entire career. You are already either baised, or simply not informed. The WBO is no different than any of the other big 4. They are all 4 recognized by each other as World Championship Belts, which is why the holder of each of the 4 belts is taken out of the rankings of the other 3.

What is the big deal about Lennox being a 3 time Champ? He was only a 3 time champ because he was knocked out twice while he was champ. So, you are saying that Wlad should get knocked out, that way he can come back and be a 3 time champ? That's really warped logic.

Let's get real. Wlad has been considered the recongized Champ by the people (which is all that matters) ever since he beat Chris Byrd, who was the #1 Ranked Heavyweight by Ring mag and the longest standing Champion in the division. He had also just beat Sam Peter, who after Wlad beat Byrd, was sitting right behind Wlad at #2 by Ring Mag.

Lewis was not considered the recognized Champ of the division until he beat Holyfield. After that his title reign consisted of a win against Tua (good win, was bashed for being boring like Wlad vs Iggy), a win over the horrible Michael Grant, a win over Frans Botha... who had just been knocked out by Mike Tyson... getting knocked out by Rahman.... winning his titles back from Rahman, beating a horribly shot Tyson, and then winning a fight on a cut against Vitali in a fight he was losing on all cards. During this time Lewis managed to drop his IBF and WBA belts in order to avoid fighting his #1 contenders. Which would be ok if it wasn't for the fact that he barely fought so there was no reason why he couldn't. Then, Lewis ultimately dropped his WBC title as well to avoid the WBC mandate that he fight Vitali again or be stripped.

You call that a great title reign? Wlad's reign is leaps and bounds above Lewis'.

BTW, Lewis unified 3 title belts. The WBC, WBA, and IBF. One he got from the McCall rematch when McCall was fresh out of crack rehab and didn't even fight. The other 2 both came from Holyfield who unlike Lewis had spent his prime fighting the best fighters in the division multiple times (Tyson, Bowe, Moorer).... Wlad unified the IBF, WBO, and also knocked out the true WBA Champ and was robbed of his title by the crooked organization who handed it back to the guy who had already lost it in the ring. Wlad collected those titles by beating the #1 ranked heavy in the World Chris Byrd, then beating the undefeated WBO Champ Ibragimov (boring fight Wlad gets flack for), and the Undefeated WBA champ Chagaev. Wlad's road to those titles was much tougher than over the hill Holyfield and cracked out McCall. Wlad also earned that title shot against Byrd by beating the consensus #1 Contender in the world at the time, the undefeated Sam Peter. Wlad is currently ONCE AGAIN fighting the WBA Champ in his next fight as well. BTW, Lewis never even successfullly defended all of his unified belts. He lost the WBA for failing to fight his #1 contender directly after winning.

Wlad has absolutely dominated EVERYBODY since beating Chris Byrd for the Championship. A much more dominant run than Lewis had after beating Holyfield.

 

I love the lists with John L Sullivan, Jack Johnson, Sam Langford, etc. Even Dempsy to some extent. How the f has anyone on this thread seen enough of these guys to put them over Lewis, Tyson, Holyfield, Holmes, etc.?

 

Based on what?

 

Did you agree all the reasons, except the ones you answered?

Lennox has 16 championship match wins because people consider the first fight as a victory.

At the time Wlad was WBO champion, people didn’t considered it as a major championship (which is all that matters). So obviously nobody (but K2 fan boys) consider them a real title defenses.

Nope. But being three time champ is rare accomplishment and worth of mentioning. Tells about strength of character being able to come back and win championship multiple times.

At that time, he was the guy who was the favored to win, if all the champions fought each other. Not a same thing than actually fighting all of them and becoming number #1 guy.

Let’s get real. Wlads reign as number #1 guy in the division started, when he beat ill Chagaev, who shouldn’t have a top ranking in a first place, after not fighting anyone worth of anything, in past two years.

So Wlads reign as number #1 guy consist victories over Chambers and horribly shot Sam Peter. Then pulling out fight twice against unknown Chisora and getting knocked out by Haye this summer.
Impressive but wouldn’t but it above Lennox reign.

Both Holyfield victories were great achievements. Better than anything Wlad has done so far.

He didn’t knock out Chagaev. I remember you mentioning many times how Wlad has never been knock out, so you should remember the difference in Wlads victories.

So he made ill man, who hadn’t fight anyone in the top level for two years to quit.
Man who wasn’t a real WBA champion anymore, because he failed to fight against his mandatory or anyone top 15 ranked in two years.

After failing to meet real WBA champion and instead fighting champion of another organization his "champion in recess/number 1 contender ship" status was rightfully taken away.

No reason to call Wlad as a WBA champ.

You are out of your mind.

Beating number one fighter in the world Evander Holyfield twice, is much better achievement than destroying overmatched Byrd (who was 1-5 underdog(, Ibramigov (1-5 underdog) and Chagaev (1-6 underdog)

It was good victory at that time, but not as good as beating proven McCall or near as good as beating number #1 heavyweight in the world.

In a fight what will derail Wlad express. Haye will KO him in two rounds.

True. WBA made ridiculous demands to give the title back to Holyfield.

As we compare whose legacy is better, we should evaluate them as whole.
Not just Lewis career after Holyfield fight or Wlads career after Byrd fight.

But even with those standards Lenox victory over Vitali, is better victory legacy wise than anything Wlad has done.

 

Why do you put Rocky so high.

There is beating ATG's and beating ATG in Ali state against Holmes.
Rocky beat guys who were once ATG's.

They were no longer fighting as ATG's when he fought them.

Accept for Archie Moore who was a light heavy at 40, fighting at both light heavy and heavyweight. Outside of Archie I would have to go with Walcott, where is he in your top 25?

 

1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Johnson
4. Dempsey
5. Marciano
6. Foreman
7. Sullivan
8. Jeffries
9. Holmes
10. Tyson
11. Frazier
12. Wills
13. Charles
14. Lewis
15. Liston
16. Tunney

 

Because records and accounts of who they beat don't exist :roll: