I wasnt talking about pac's losses. when did i mention them at all? Neither did i talk about having problems with anyone. while your point is valid its nothing to do with what i said. Im not having a go at pacquiao at all. IF he defeats floyd then theres a good case to be made to put him in the top 10. in my opinion though if he beats floyd that puts him in the top 15. Thats hardly an insult to the guy is it? Maybe 5 years after he's retired i'll see things differently and have him in my top 10. Thats usually how it goes. fighters get appreciated more once they are gone.[/quote] you right, I was talking a bit in general. but for me it is very obvious he is in the top 10, because doing what he did, has never been done. climbing 2,3 or 4 divisions is impressive, but what he did is not far from perfect. didn't emanuel steward they he is better than henry armstrong, who obviously is listed by everyone in the top 4? when a legendary trainer says things like that, than you know, he is realy amongs the best.
Lets see. If he never fights again (Mosley fight gets cancled and he retires). I would say Top 30. Same as if he fights and loses to Mosley. If he beats Mosley and retires Top 25. Same as if he beats Mosley and Loses to Mayweather. I think some preceptive is needed to answer the question. If Manny Pacquiao beats Shane Mosley and Floyd Mayweather Jr. He's top 10. I give all my rankings a +/- 5 scale.
Now for the people putting top 10, look at this list and tell me that he deserves to be over any of them with a straight face 1. Sugar Ray Robinson 2. Henry Amrstrong 3. Willie Pep 4. Muhammad Ali 5. Harry Greb 6. Roberto Duran 7. Benny Leonard 8. Joe Louis 9. Sam Langford 10. Sugar Ray Leonard Sorry but I just can't put Pac over any of them
Cant talk about the older guys, I wasn't there to get a good feel of how highly regarded their opponents were at the time. However, lets compare Pac to someone like Ali/Duran who's fights and career I am very familiar with. Ali's best wins: Foreman, Frazier, Liston. Durans: SRL, Barkley, de Jesus/Buchanan? Pac: MAB, Morales/Cotto, JMM. Foreman at the time was king of HW but went on to have tough fights with Lyle and Young. I think MAB was an equally as good a FW as Foreman was a HW and p4p better than de jesus and Barkley. Again, the rest of the fighters are on about even terms. The smaller fighters achieved just as much as those HW's, just not as popular because of different era and lower weight class. Was Duran beating Barkley in a very tough fight in Durans 5th championship weight class much more impressive than Pac demolishing Cotto in his 7th championship weight class? On top of that they all have great achievements. Ali the first 3 time HW champ. Pac first 8 division champ, 4 weight lineal champ. They all have a host of top contenders and a few great fighters on their list. Duran simply has SRL who is the best win on anyones list however in terms of other top fighters they beat, Pac has more. Take out SRL for example and Duran has wins over: Buchanan Esteban de Jesus Davey Moore Barkley Cuevas In his prime or whilst he was still one of the top fighters in the game he would have losses to De Jesus, Laing, Benitez and SRL. Pac would have a loss to Morales and draw with JMM. He has those 2 early losses extremely early in career. So we take out MAB, Pac's best win and we still have: Cotto Morales JMM Hatton Ledwaba Sasakul Larios ODLH Clottey Margarito I dont think champs and former champs such as Larios/Margo/Sasakul etc are far off from the likes of Moore and Cuevas hence why I mentioned them. As you can see, Duran is 6th on your list. Whether you agree or disagree, one can easily make a strong case for Pac having a better resume than Duran or equal, therefore a good reason to have Pac placed inside top 10.
my point exactly. But we'll be labelled *****'s. and called black. coz we dont have pac in the top 10
Not really, thats a respectable list, I have no problem with that whatsoever. However as in the case I made, Pac can easily belong in that list and it wont be absurd either. ATG rankings are so subjective that fighters can reach a certain level and be easily in and out of that list, depending on how people view and perceive the fighters victories.
Do you put him over Michael Spinks or not? The great weight jumper with a steady and solid number of wins?...or the greatest light-heavyweight of all time with a few less very good wins as Manny has, but holds the greatest win of all time in my opinion. I think Emmanuel is around the great Michael.
Not having the highest opinion of Floyd, I don't think it bumps him up more than five spots. I'd have him at top 15 the highest, admitting I don't know enough about old fighters to make a proper list. I do know, however, that his best so far win doesn't compare with a lot of ATG's, even if his weight jumps and accumulation of opponents have been impressive.
Spinks jumped up around 20 pounds to take on one of the greatest heavyweights of all time, who was going through a period of dominance and Spinks beat him. I don't think there is a greater victory ever been had in the sport. When you link that to his run at 175, where he established himself as one of the greatest light-heavyweights of all time (in my opinion the best ever at that weight). Spinks was also something like the first light-heavyweight champion to win the heavyweight title since Charles I think. Manny has some very good wins (more than Spinks) and is one of the greatest weight jumpers of all time (although he hasn't established himself as the best competitor at every weight). For a former flyweight to have held a (controversial) 154 strap is truly amazing. For him to have sustained such a long run of victories against very good competition and not lose is amazing. I think its pretty close and I can't really decide.