Effective Nutrition for Weight Loss while training very hard

Lefty, you mention that the literature says that athletes don't require high protein. What amount of protein for an athlete with a schedule of running, strength training, and boxing, would you recommend? I'm currently spending a lot of money trying to eat a high protein diet and would be interested experimenting with lower guidelines.

Thank you.

 

this should be funny

 

Hi mate, according to the literature athletes who train intensely require around 1.5 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight. Most people eat more than that without trying so save your money. The more you train and the more you raise the intensity the more carbohydrates you'll need to consume. If you deplete your glycogen stores you'll use lipids and amino acids for fuel. Think of the carbohydrates as a buffer for your protein and your muscles, if you stay well fueled on Carbs you can train at a higher intensity more often and the protein you've consumed does what you want it to do for your muscles. Consuming high protein is a waste and you could potentially damage your body in the long term.
If you're interested in learning from a credible source that's backed up by numerous studies then try and get hold of the latest edition of Exercise Physiology by McArdle & Katch, really great book :good

 

Guess what I find funny? You're 90 odd kilos and you think you're a big dog for back squatting 175

 

Lefty, I believe you, but am surprised actually that protein intake is that high. I was thinking 1 to 1.25 grams per bodyweight for intense training.

I think the biggest misconception is that many athletes in general try to train like bodybuilders, not athletes. Carbohydrates have gotten a bad rep lately because most don't understand their importance. I do however disagree that most people get 1.5 grams of bodyweight in protein. That is very high when you add it up. Maybe it's just because I weigh 210lbs:-D.

What does the literature think about increasing fat intake and lowering carbs somewhat(I'm not talking overkill like an Atkins or ketosis stuff)? What does it say about high fat diets using fats as energy sources for athletes?

Thanks Lefty.

 

hi mate, that's 1.5 per kg, so for a big guy like you that would be around 150 grams a day. The range seems to be between 1.2-1.8 per kg so you could get away with a bit less.
Bodybuilders actually don't need extra protein either, the only athletes that could benefit from extra protein on top of that already more than generous amount are ultra endurance sort of athletes as they can use it for fuel.
There was a study done to test carb (65% from carbs) vs high fat (60% from fat) diets for athletes, the result from that study showed that the improvement was far greater for the high carb group. A high fat diet may help to increase the capacity to mobilize and catobolize fat during intense aerobic exercise and theoretically conserve glycogen reserves which would be helpful when glycogen reserves are low.
The problem with training on a high fat diet is that your ability to train is compromised, you tend to have increased symptoms of lethargy, fatigue and higher levels of perceived exertion.
Training is also compromised when your percentage of energy from fats is too low ie. around 20%.
Carbs are really the most important thing for an athlete, I wouldn't recommend cutting them down or replacing them with anything. Fat is also very important though. Protein is probably the least important part of the puzzle when it comes to fitness yet it's what most people focus on, I find that a bit funny. If you have too little it could be a problem but that's actually pretty hard to do, if you're eating carbs and fats you're going to be getting protein as well as it's hard to find foods that are purely carbs, protein or fats. The increased energy demands of someone training intensely means that they should be eating more so getting the level of protein needed shouldn't be a challenge at all.
Hope I've helped a bit, if you want me to elaborate on anything or post up some studies let me know :good

 

I never said anything of the sort, I think I'm quite a weak guy but on a boxing forum I'm one of the stronger guys.
I just know that I genuinely know something valuable and will be able to achieve what I want to, in time

 

I see some bs but on the internet everyone has a voice so although I hate to do it I'm not going to go taking apart posts, after all its your thread and you are looking to take what you need for your fight.

Maybe we should run an experiment? After your fight is out of the way? When is it? How is progress?

 

run an experiement with who? whats the argument even? that personal experience > then scientific evidence?

 

Actually yes, good point Ylem! I win that argument!

But no, experiment for a few months with different dietary approaches, as an experienced athlete Jeff would be able to tell the differences in his output in training, and we can get some juicy naked photos to compare body composition, plus keep track of scale weight. Nothing to do with my own philosophies, strictly about the thread title.

 

id definatly say scientific evidence trumps personal experience while personal experience with scientific evidence backing it trumps all. and even if your personal experience does work better you should still try to figure out the scientific backing to why it works so you can understand why it works and if its possible to improve it even more.


but like what are the diffrent dietary approches that your suggesting? whats diffrent in your approach to leftys approach? do you agree that 1.5 g of protien to kg is enough or do you think more 1 g per lb of body weight or 2 g per lb of body weight is better? do you agree he should be getting a decent amount of carbs or do you think he should cut back on carbs?

or is the whole argument based on the usefullness of having a protien drink after working out?

 

Lets not be dumb, I wasn't saying studies or articles are bull****, but if its going between someone who has achieved what you want to achieve telling you how he got there, or a research paper you know nothing except what you are fed about, well.. that's all I have to say on that particular matter. If the research is conducted by bonafide respected sports people with no agenda, and under transparent circumstances, then it will sure have a lot more credibility.

And anyway, the higher protein thing is mainly when trying to lose weight, for a boxer, carbs are always no.1 for performance athletes. Just at some point if you want to lose weight, you will either lose fat and/or lose muscle, or lose some temporarily held water and bowel weight in the few days before your weighin.
I haven't read lefty's approach, we will just turn this thread into a pissing contest, I've been pm'ing anyone who wants my approach though. Just don't want anyone to devalue my posts by coming up with compelling arguments such as "shut the **** up I'm a sports scientist".
1.5g protein per kg is probably enough to maintain, although with high output more is probably better. Decent amount of carbs for sure, just don't go ape**** (have them mainly around your workout times), and don't have many on your off days if you want to lose weight. This is all about LOSING weight, not putting out the best possible performance, nothing will be perfect when losing weight or restricting anything, unless you were not really trying in the first place or at a beginner level anyway.

A much BETTER guideline would be: Don't put yourself in a position where you have to drop any decent amount of weight in a period of training where you want to be performing to a high level. Eat from good clean sources, sleep plenty, train hard, and your weight, body composition etc will adjust accordingly. If you binge or eat **** or both, you will gain weight, most likely through water retention. If you show some discipline and keep your eye on the prize, you will drop a few lbs no problem. With a 24 hour weighin its not too hard to drop a fair bit of weight in the week leading up to it and just before that weighin. If you are pretty overweight and have time to spend working on it and dropping some fat, you can do that too if you want. It's much better to start a bit of a lifestyle overhaul rather than a temporary fix to a permanent problem.

 

in the future id say specify what High amounts of protein is instead of just saying high protien. you dont want someone thinking 3g of protien per lb of body fat is best.

like ive said high reps low weight for building endurance and i get in arguments where no one asks what i mean by high reps so im thinking 20-40 reps and the guy im argueing with is assuming im talking about 8-12 reps where as if i had just said 4-6 sets of 20-40 reps blah blah blah the whole argument would of been avoided.

and you probly dont want to bring up some ones name in your post if you dont want them to go out of their way to argue with you.