First off I'd like to thank MattDonnellson, Kmac, SonnyListon'sJab, Jack, Casamyor, Bremen, Cobbler, TBooze and others for helping me with this. What I have done is gone through the resume's of every lineal heavyweight champ (From Sullivan to Lewis) and looked for 5 pieces of data: how long they reigned, how many top 10 ranked (pre 1892 it was newspaper clippings, extracts, etc. from 1892 to 1923 it was Matt's rankings, from then on it was the ring rankings) opponents they beat, how many top 10 ranked opponents they defended the lineal belt against, whether they beat "the man" and lastly whether they had beaten a past or future lineal champ. Here is the raw data: I have it all tabulated in a spreadsheet so all I have to do is think up a point system and bob's yer uncle Key: CC=current champ, TD = title defence, NC=non-current champ. Sullivan: 7 years: Donaldson, Dalton, Ryan (x2), Elliot, Mitchell, Slade, Mcaffrey, Kilrain (TD). Corbett: 5 years: Choynski (x2), Kilrain, Mcaffrey, Mccoy, Sullivan (CC) Fitzsimmons: 2 years: Hall, Choynski, Maher, Corbett (CC), Ruhlin, Sharkey, O’Brien Jeffries: 6 years: Sharkey (x2, 1TD), Armstrong, Fitzsimmons (x2, CC + TD), Corbett (x2, 2TDNC), Kennedy, Ruhlin (TD) Hart: 1 year: Carter( x2), Ferguson, Ruhlin, Johnson (NC), Root, Sullivan, Ross Burns: 3 years: Hart (CC), O’Brien Johnson: 7 years: Childs, Gardner, Martin, Mcvea (x3), Ferguson, Jeanette (x4), Langford, Fitsimmons (NC*), Flynn, Burns (CC), Ross (TD), Kaufman (TD), Ketchel (TD), Jeffries (TDNC*), Moran (TD), Willard: 4 years: J. Johnson (CC), Moran (TD), F. Johnson Dempsey: 7 years: Morris, Fulton, Miske (x2, 1TD), Willard (CC), Brennan (TD), Carpentier (TD), Gibbons (TD), Firpo (TD), Sharkey (NC) Tunney: 2 years: Spalla, Risko, Dempsey (x2, CC, TDNC), Heeney (TD) Schmeling: 2 years: Risko, Uzcudun, Sharkey (CC), Stribling (TD), Walker, Neusel, Louis (NC) Sharkey: 1 years: F. Johnson, Rojas, Weinert, Renault, Gorman, Godfrey, Wills, Maloney, Delaney, Stribling, Carnera (NC), Schmelling (CC) Carnera: 1 year: Stribling, Godfrey, Levinsky, Schaaf, Sharkey (CC) Baer: 1 year: Risko, Levinsky (x2), Schaaf, Griffiths, Schmelling (NC), Carnera (CC), Farr, Galento Braddock: 2 years: Lasky, Baer (CC), Farr Louis: 12 years: Massera, Ramage (x2), Perroni, Brown, Carnera (NC), Levinsky, Baer (NC), Retzlaff, Attore, Braddock (CC), Farr (TD), Mann (TD), Schmelling (TDNC), Galento (TD), Pastor (TD), Godoy (TD), Paycheck (TD), Burman (TD), Simon (x2, 2TD), Baer (x2, 2TD), Conn (x2, 2TD), Nova (TD), Mauriello (TD), Walcott (x2, 2TDNC), Savold, Brion Charles: 2 years: Maxim (x4, 1TD), Bivins (x2), Baksi, Maxim, Walcott (x2, NC +TDNC), Valentino (TD), Louis (TDNC), Oma (TD), Layne (x2), Brion, Harrison, Wallace, Satterfield Walcott: 1 year: Sheppard, Murray, Baksi, Bivins, Gomez, Oma, Maxim (x2), Ray, Johnson, Agramonte, Charles (x2, CC + TDNC) Marciano: 4 years: Lastarza (x2, 1TD), Layne, Louis (NC), Matthews, Walcott (x2, CC + TDNC), Charles (x2, TDNC), Cockell (TD), Moore (TD) Patterson: 5 years: Harrison, Slade, Jackson (x2, 1TD), Moore, Harris (TD), London (TD), Johanneson (x2, CC +TDNC), Machen, Chuvalo, Bonavena Johanneson : 1 year: Machen, Patterson (CC) Liston: 2 years: Bethea, DeJohn, Williams, Harris, Folley, Machen, Patterson (x2, CC + TDNC), Clark Ali: 11 years: Daniels, Lazarante, Moore, Jones, Cooper, Liston (x2, CC+TDNC), Patterson (x2, TDNC, NC), Chuvalo (TD), London (TD), Mildenberger (TD), Terrell (TD), Folley (TD), Quarry (x2), Bonavena, Ellis, Foster, Bugner (x2, TD), Norton (x2, TD), Frazier (x2, NC + TDNC), Foreman (CC), Wepner (TD), Lyle (TD), Young (TD), Evangelista (TD), Shavers (TD), L. Spinks (CC) Frazier: 3 years: Bonavena (x2), Chuvalo, Ramos, Quarry (x2), Ellis, Foster (TD), Ali (TDNC), Bugner Foreman: 4 years: Chuvalo, Frazier (x2 CC +NC), Norton (TD), Lyle, Moorer (CC), L. Spinks: 0 years: Ali (CC), Evangelista, Mercardo Holmes: 5 years: Shavers (x2), Norton, Evangelista, Weaver, Zanon, Jones, LeDoux, Ali (CC), Berbick (TD), Spinks (TDNC), Cooney (TD), Cobb (TD) Witherspoon (TD), Smith (TD), Bey (TD), Williams (TD), Mercer M. Spinks: 3 years: Holmes (x2, CC + TDNC) Tyson : 2 years: Berbick, Smith, Thomas, Tucker, Biggs, Holmes (NC*), Spinks (CC) , Williams (TD), Ruddock (x2), Bruno, Seldon, Douglas: 0 years: Page, Berbick, Tyson (CC) Holyfield: 3 years: Thomas, Dokes, Rodrigues, Douglas (CC), Foreman (TDNC), Holmes (TDNC), Bowe (CC), Tyson (x2 NC), Moorer (NC), Rahman Bowe: 1 year: Holyfield (x2 CC + NC), Hide, Golota (x2) Moorer: 0 years: Holyfield (CC) Briggs: 1 year: Foreman (CC), Lyakhovic Lewis: 6 years: Ruddock, Tucker, Jackson, Butler, Mercer, Mccall, Akinwade, Golota, Briggs (CC), Holyfield (TDNC), Grant (TD), Tua (TD), Rahman (CC), Tyson (TDNC), V. Klitschko (TD) Rahman: 0 years: Lewis (CC), Barrett notable contenders - using the criteria they never beat the number 1/2 whilst ranked 1/2, nor did they beat "the man" V. Klitschko: Kirk Johnson, Sanders, Williams (TD), Peter, Gomez, Arreola, Kevin Johnson, Solis, Briggs (NC*) W. Klitschko: Byrd (x2), McCline, Peter, Brock, Brewster, Ibragimov, Thompson, Rahman (NC*), Chagaev, Chambers (TD)
It gives some interesting results. If I give each fighter: 1 point for every year they reigned and every past or future lineal champ they beat; 2 points for beating the current lineal champ; 3 points for every top 10 opponent they faced and 4 points for every time they defended vs a top 10 opponent, here is the ranking. Louis Ali Holmes Johnson Charles Lewis Marciano Patterson Walcott Holyfield Jeffries Dempsey Sullivan Sharkey Frazier Tyson W. Klitschko Liston V. Klitschko Baer Corbett Schmelling Hart Fitzsimmons Foreman Tunney Willard Carnera Bowe Burns Braddock M. Spinks L. Spinks Douglas Johanneson Briggs Rahman Moorer
That's alot to digest. But a very good job none the less. Interesting point system. Funny how the top two spots are exactly the two you would assume without a system.
It is, I just wanted to get the information altogether in one place, when you look at what hart and sharkey did in their time, they get really underrated, same with patterson. I feel also the k bros compare well with champs from past era's in terms of accomplishments. One thing is, liston is very hard to rank highly using any consistent system. A lot have him in the top 4/8, based on what he actually did in the ring, it's hard to justify.
How did you conclude vitaly and wlad to be lineal? The ring belt? Thats not a lineal thing at all. And the vitaly v Johnson fight wasn't even a title fight For the WBC. Not sure how it's slipped in there. As far as I know there is no lineal champ Post Lewis. Wlad the most likely after he beats haye and his brother retires. But when the best two guys won't fight and share belts, IMO therea no way you can proclaim one lineal unless he has both belts.
Ah. Sorry man should have put more time into the cc etc. Impressive work, wSnt trying to be too negative. Just IMO neither brother has been lineal for whatever reason.
So after losing to Lewis, Vitali became lineal? And after Vitali retired, Wlad becomes lineal by beating Byrd?........:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl
I used the ring ratings from 1924 onwards but not always their choice of belt. I don't believe they awarded it to big george the second time nor to briggs. Other cases also. After vitali beat johnson and sander beat wlad they were seen as the best two heavyweights. The winner became the new champion. With wlad it is not as clear cut, but beating chagaev who was prime and ranked number 3 was enough. Is either claim box less legitimate than say sharkey vs schmelling or patterson vs moore? Lineal rules just state number 1 has to beat 2 or 3. In both cases of the brothers this happened by my reckoning, unless anyone has evidence to the contrary?
There is no Lineal Champ Lewis retired lineal, and today we have 3 men who hold portions of the HW title.
By that piece of amazing logic, there have been no lineal champions since Marciano, who retired with the title, undefeated.
I thought that was the point of this thread, but it was supposed to include talent as a factor too? :conf