my example is patterson vs moore. i know that schmelling and sharkey where the top 2, but i'm not sure patterson was in the top 3. as i said at the start of the thread, I'm using year end ratings and at the end of 1955 Patterson wasn't even in the top 10. as i said tho, if this is the case and moore/patterson were 1 and 2 then I'll stick with tradition :deal
up for debate :good do you have any info on whether patterson and moore were 1 & 2 when they fought for the vacant championship?
I take it by the 'end of year ratings' you mean the Ring Magazine annual rankings? In which case the reason Floyd Patterson wasn't in the top ten heavyweights that they ranked at the end of 1955 was because he was ranked at light heavyweight. atsch The number three in those rankings (Tommy Jackson) beat the number two (Bob Baker) in early 1956. Patterson then beat Jackson in an eliminator to fight for the title against Moore. That's about as definitive as you can get.
I'll ignore your abrasive tone and instead show gratitude :good thank you very much for that info. I wasn't sure if beating Jackson promoted him to number 2, I didn't have access to the rankings at the time, thank you. I'll fold, If every other champ in history got there by either beating "the man" or by beating the number 1/2 when they are number 1/2 then it should be no different today. When Vitali beat Johnson, Byrd was the number 2 contender, he never rematched him. He retired before every beating the number 2 contender. When wlad beat Byrd maskaev/peter were the number 2 contenders and he faced neither, nor did he face the winner of their fights (vitali) so he wasn't lineal. Thanks again :good
I'll be adding the resume's of Langford, Wills and Norton to this also. For thos interested, the rank is a points system that can be obviously changed. It is based on years reigned beating the man top 10 opposition beaten top opposition defended against past/future lineal champs beaten I weighted it 1,2,3,4,1 respectively.
Well in this case it does since the top 3 all hold all the gold, if 1 were to beat the other 2 or someone were to beat all 3, that said person would be the man. Wlad has NOT established a new lineage.
Seems to me that beating the man should be worth more points than defending against a top 10 opponent or any other opponent. Also, defeating past/future lineal champs should count for more than beating anyone aside from the current lineal champ. I think a rating system like this might be more effective. years reigned - 1 pt per yr beating the man - 4 pts past/future lineal champs beaten - 3 pts per top opposition defended against - 2 pts per top 10 opposition beaten - 1 pt per I'd guess that Joe Louis would still come out on top. As for K2, when Lewis retired the closest thing to him was Vitali as shown in their controversial fight where Vitali was up on points when the fight was stopped on a cut caused by a punch. Since then, Wlad has beaten everyone worth talking about and is obviously the best out there and the lineal champion. I suspect all doubts will be removed when the beats Haye this summer.
I agree, see my above post :good I wasn't sure if patterson - moore was 1 vs 2, but it's been cleared up for me. and yeah you're right they make the difference beacuse the tp 3 are ranked. I still maintain it is the ranking which is more important than being a belt holder, today they happen to go hand in hand. since Lewis the best we've had is 1 vs 3, so i agree no new lineage :deal
regarding wlad, he didn't beat maskaev, peter, vitali whilst they were ranked number 2. if he beats haye it's still 1 vs 3. to establish linearity he needs to beat vitali/the next number 2. I changed my points system to the following. Ok, this time I've weighted it as follows: 2 points for every year they were champion 6 points for every fighter they faced in the top 10 7 points for every fighter they faced in the top 5 8 points for every fighter they faced who was the highest ranked at the time 9 points for beating "the man" 4 points for beating someone who was or would become "the man" This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected
I don't believe Vit started a new lineage, but Sanders was top 4 http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine's_Annual_Ratings:_Heavyweight--2000s he'd have needed to beat byrd to become the new champ IMO
I've tried to iron out any mistakes I made, but here is the latest breakdowns. I've added the main black contenders from the 1900's. This only shows which top 10 ranked opposition they fought throughout their career. I have actually broken it down to top 5 and leading contender on my spreadsheet. Key: CC=current champ, TD = title defence, NC=non-current champ. Sullivan: 7 years: Donaldson, Dalton, Ryan (x2), Elliot, Mitchell, Slade, Mcaffrey, Kilrain (TD). Corbett: 5 years: Choynski (x2), Kilrain, Mcaffrey, Mccoy, Sullivan (CC) Fitzsimmons: 2 years: Hall, Choynski, Maher, Corbett (CC), Ruhlin, Sharkey, OBrien Jeffries: 6 years: Sharkey (x2, 1TD), Armstrong, Fitzsimmons (x2, CC + TD), Corbett (x2, 2TDNC), Kennedy, Ruhlin (TD) Hart: 1 year: Carter( x2), Ferguson, Ruhlin, Johnson (NC), Root, Sullivan, Ross Burns: 3 years: Hart (CC), OBrien (TD) Johnson: 7 years: Childs, Gardner, Martin, Mcvea (x3), Ferguson, Jeanette (x4), Langford, Fitsimmons (NC*), Flynn, Burns (CC), Ross (TD), Kaufman (TD), Ketchel (TD), Jeffries (TDNC*), Moran (TD), Willard: 4 years: J. Johnson (CC), Moran (TD), F. Johnson Dempsey: 7 years: Morris, Fulton, Miske (x2, 1TD), Willard (CC), Brennan (TD), Carpentier (TD), Gibbons (TD), Firpo (TD), Sharkey (NC) Tunney: 2 years: Spalla, Risko, Dempsey (x2, CC, TDNC), Heeney (TD) Schmeling: 2 years: Risko, Uzcudun, Sharkey (CC), Stribling (TD), Walker, Neusel, Louis (NC) Sharkey: 1 years: F. Johnson, Renault, Gorman, Godfrey, Wills, Maloney, Delaney, Stribling, Carnera (NC), Schmelling (CC) Carnera: 1 year: Stribling, Godfrey, Levinsky, Schaaf, Sharkey (CC) Baer: 1 year: Risko, Levinsky (x2), Schaaf, Griffiths, Schmelling (NC), Carnera (CC), Farr, Galento Braddock: 2 years: Lasky, Baer (CC), Farr Louis: 12 years: Massera, Ramage (x2), Perroni, Brown, Carnera (NC), Levinsky, Baer (NC), Retzlaff, Attore, Braddock (CC), Farr (TD), Mann (TD), Schmelling (TDNC), Galento (TD), Pastor (TD), Godoy (x2TD), Paycheck (TD), Burman (TD), Simon (x2, 2TD), Baer (x2, 2TD), Conn (x2, 2TD), Nova (TD), Mauriello (TD), Walcott (x2, 2TDNC), Savold, Brion Charles: 2 years: Maxim (x4, 1TD), Bivins (x2), Baksi, Walcott (x2, NC +TDNC), Valentino (TD), Louis (TDNC), Oma (TD), Layne (x2), Brion, Harrison, Wallace, Satterfield Walcott: 1 year: Sheppard, Murray, Baksi, Bivins, Gomez, Oma, Maxim (x2), Ray, Johnson, Agramonte, Charles (x2, CC + TDNC) Marciano: 4 years: Lastarza (x2, 1TD), Layne, Louis (NC), Matthews, Walcott (x2, CC + TDNC), Charles (x2, TDNC), Cockell (TD), Moore (TD) Patterson: 5 years: Harrison, Slade, Jackson (x2, 1TD), Moore, Harris (TD), London (TD), Johanneson (x2, CC +TDNC), Machen, Chuvalo, Bonavena Johanneson : 1 year: Machen, Patterson (CC) Liston: 2 years: Bethea, DeJohn, Williams, Harris, Folley, Machen, Patterson (x2, CC + TDNC), Clark Ali: 11 years: Daniels, Lazarante, Moore, Jones, Cooper, Liston (x2, CC+TDNC), Patterson (x2, TDNC, NC), Chuvalo (TD), London (TD), Mildenberger (TD), Terrell (TD), Folley (TD), Quarry (x2), Bonavena, Ellis, Foster, Bugner (x2, TD), Norton (x2, TD), Frazier (x2, NC + TDNC), Foreman (CC), Wepner (TD), Lyle (TD), Young (TD), Evangelista (TD), Shavers (TD), L. Spinks (CC) Frazier: 3 years: Bonavena (x2), Chuvalo, Ramos, Quarry (x2), Ellis, Foster (TD), Ali (TDNC), Bugner Foreman: 4 years: Chuvalo, Frazier (x2 CC +NC), Norton (TD), Lyle, Moorer (CC), L. Spinks: 0 years: Ali (CC), Evangelista, Mercardo Holmes: 5 years: Shavers (x2), Norton, Evangelista, Weaver, Zanon, Jones, LeDoux, Ali (CC), Berbick (TD), Spinks (TDNC), Cooney (TD), Cobb (TD) Witherspoon (TD), Smith (TD), Bey (TD), Williams (TD), Mercer M. Spinks: 3 years: Holmes (x2, CC + TDNC) Tyson : 2 years: Berbick, Smith, Thomas, Tucker, Biggs, Holmes (NC*), Spinks (CC) , Williams (TD), Ruddock (x2), Bruno, Seldon, Douglas: 0 years: Page, Berbick, Tyson (CC) Holyfield: 3 years: Thomas, Dokes, Rodrigues, Douglas (CC), Foreman (TDNC), Holmes (TDNC), Bowe (CC), Tyson (x2 NC), Moorer (NC), Rahman
Bowe: 1 year: Holyfield (x2 CC + NC), Hide, Golota (x2) Moorer: 0 years: Holyfield (CC) Briggs: 1 year: Foreman (CC), Lyakhovic Lewis: 6 years: Ruddock, Tucker, Jackson, Butler, Mercer, Mccall, Akinwade, Golota, Briggs (CC), Holyfield (TDNC), Grant (TD), Tua (TD), Rahman (CC), Tyson (TDNC), V. Klitschko (TD) Rahman: 0 years: Lewis (CC), Barrett Notable Contenders V. Klitschko: Kirk Johnson, Sanders, Williams, Peter, Gomez, Arreola, Kevin Johnson, Solis, Briggs (NC*) W. Klitschko: Byrd (x2), McCline, Peter, Brock, Brewster, Ibragimov, Thompson, Rahman (NC*), Chagaev, Chambers Langford: Jeanette (x, Ross, Flynn (x2), Schreck, Ketchel, Lang, Mcvea(x4), D. Flynn, Smith, Wills (x2), Norfolk, Battling Jim Johnson (x2) Wills: Langford (x9), Mcvea, Jeanette, Fulton, Firpo, Weinert Jeanette: Johnson, Mcvea (x2), Ferguson (x2), D. Flynn, Ross, Jim Johnson (x4), Carpentier, Pelkey, Langford (x2), Norfolk (x2) Mcvea: Carter, Martin, Jeanette, Langford (x2), Pelkey, Jim Johnson, Wills (x2)