Heavyweight Lineal Champions + Notable Contenders

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by lufcrazy, Apr 28, 2011.


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  1. RightCross

    RightCross Grandmaster of Boxing Full Member

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    Nice work appreciate the effort. I always and mean always under rate charles. I lived in cincinnati and often drove down ezzard charles blvd as a reminder what an idiot I am for not ranking him higher in my atg hw list.

    I have charles at #18 atg in my list I am going to revisit that again.

    ** Edit ** Just wanted to add something about a guy like Wills a guy who i have ranked very high. Due to the division of black and white boxing he had a lot less opportunity under your system.

    keeping that in mind what an incredible record jack johnson had.
     
    RightCross, Apr 30, 2011
    RightCross, Apr 30, 2011
    #46
  2. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

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    I'm the same. When I do my own list he ranks about 18, but when I look at what he did and who he beat he ranks much much higher.
     
    lufcrazy, Apr 30, 2011
    lufcrazy, Apr 30, 2011
    #47
  3. Slacker

    Slacker Big & Slow Full Member

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    I see it more like this:

     
    Slacker, May 1, 2011
    Slacker, May 1, 2011
    #48
  4. popejking

    popejking Adamek Full Member

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    You may not posses any HW belt and be the lineal champion :smoke

    Whats more you may be undisputted and not be the lineal champion. Tyson vs Spinks for example.
     
    popejking, May 1, 2011
    popejking, May 1, 2011
    #49
  5. Nonito Smoak

    Nonito Smoak Ioka>Lomo, sorry my dudes Full Member

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    It shows Charles as being underrated and Dempsey as being overrated. I agree with both, but more largely about Charles and that Johnson and Marciano are deservedly ranked in the top5 all time.
     
    Nonito Smoak, May 1, 2011
    Nonito Smoak, May 1, 2011
    #50
  6. Nonito Smoak

    Nonito Smoak Ioka>Lomo, sorry my dudes Full Member

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    Wlad is a legit lineal champ.
     
    Nonito Smoak, May 1, 2011
    Nonito Smoak, May 1, 2011
    #51
  7. popejking

    popejking Adamek Full Member

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    The more sanctioning body, the bigger mess. When no1 in the division beats no2 fighter, then the lineage starts. The belts are only addition. If Pac and PBF fights now, I believe that the winner would be the linear champion. And what is funny, they dont have belts (only Pac has WBO if I remember correctly)

    Question: If Zaveck (IBF champion) beats Berto (WBC) and Senchenko (WBA) (and Pac and PBF are still WW), would you consider him the man in the division?
     
    popejking, May 1, 2011
    popejking, May 1, 2011
    #52
  8. Slacker

    Slacker Big & Slow Full Member

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    Slacker, May 1, 2011
    Slacker, May 1, 2011
    #53
  9. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

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    The problem is that the first ever vacated championship was by jeffries and he decreed the upcoming victory between two contenders as a champion (hart)

    Since then we have had 3 retirements.

    Tunney retired and a new lineage was established when sharkey and schmelling (ranked 1 and 2) fought each other.

    Marciano retired and a new lineage was established when patterson and moore (ranked 1 and 2) fought each other.

    Since lewis retired we have not had the top 2 guys face each other.

    Vitali was ranked 1, byrd ranked 2, sanders ranked 3. Vitali did not fight byrd before retiring.

    Wlad got the number 1 ranking when vitali retired (by beating byrd) and during his spell we have seen rahman, maskaev, peter and vitali ranked number 2. Wlad has fought neither during this period. Even if he beats haye it doesn't matter because vitali is still ranked number 2.
     
    lufcrazy, May 1, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 1, 2011
    #54
  10. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

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    See my above post
     
    lufcrazy, May 1, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 1, 2011
    #55
  11. popejking

    popejking Adamek Full Member

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    Great post. But the biggest problem is what ranking is the valid one. Most people think about The Ring rating.
     
    popejking, May 1, 2011
    popejking, May 1, 2011
    #56
  12. Abdullah

    Abdullah Boxing Junkie banned

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    My props to you. :good That is the true World Heavyweight Championship lineage. That is just how I, and many other boxing fans and historians recognise the history of the heavyweight title. It is interesting that Lennox Lewis' retirement ended a chain that dated back to Floyd Patterson in 1956. Anyway, brilliant work!
     
    Abdullah, May 1, 2011
    Abdullah, May 1, 2011
    #57
  13. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

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    You are right and this it where the confusion begins. The ring rankings have been in play since 1924 and are what most reputable people use. All the rankings I quote are based on theirs.

    The key difference is the ring can award a belt if 1 beats 3 (or 3 beats 1). Linear champions are declared only when 1 beats 2 (or 2 beats 1) so using their rankings is fine, using their interpretation isn't. Especially with the lack of consistency I.e. When margo beat mosley they didn't award it. When douglas beat tyson they didn't award it. Even when hill beat maske they didn't award it.

    Their rankings are fine. Their awarding of championship status is not.

    Following the 130 year history of the division, declaring vitali and wlad linear champions would be unique events. Every other time it has been 1 vs 2 to decide.
     
    lufcrazy, May 1, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 1, 2011
    #58
  14. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

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    I know it is fantastic the championship remained traceable for almost 50 years.

    Thanks for the appreciation! It took a lot of effort compiling the records and rankings at each given time,
     
    lufcrazy, May 1, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 1, 2011
    #59
  15. Slacker

    Slacker Big & Slow Full Member

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    Not exactly. As you see below, Vitali became the Lineal Champ after defeating Sanders (rated 1st & 2nd by majority of sanctioning bodies and common sense) two months after Lennox retired.

    Lewis announced his retirement in February 2004.

    FightNews.com World Boxing Rankings, Updated March 14, 2004

    Heavyweight (unlimited)

    WBC
    Champion: Vacant
    1. Vitali Klitschko
    2. Corrie Sanders - This fight happened on 2004-04-24, VK win by TKO     in rnd 8


    WBA
    Champion: John Ruiz
    1. Not Rated
    2. Vitali Klitschko
    3. Corrie Sanders - This fight happened on 2004-04-24, VK win by TKO     in rnd 8
    4. Wladimir Klitschko
    5. Hasim Rahman


    IBF
    Champion: Chris Byrd
    1. Not Rated
    2. Not Rated
    3. David Tua
    4. Jameel Mccline
    5. James Toney


    WBO
    Champion: Vacant
    1. Wladimir Klitschko
    2. Lamon Brewster
    3. James Toney
    4. Jameel Ben McCline
    5. Dominick Guinn
     
    Slacker, May 1, 2011
    Slacker, May 1, 2011
    #60
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