Could Ray Leonard have achieved greatness above welterweight?

I find it curious how fans can blame the eye for keeping him out of action yet never question why he would shed the thumbless gloves for Lalonde and every fight after that

He can't fight at age 26 with thumbless gloves but can fight w/o at age 40 when he's more prone to getting hit?

 

It's all semantics isn't it.

The two fought a very close fight that could easily have gone to hagler.

Hagler looked bad against the top ranked middleweight in the world.

leonard, a career welterweight, hadn't had a meaningful victory in the past 5 years.

Leonard has just as good a claim as being shot as hagler does.

Had hagler been granted the victory (i personally scored it a draw) and then fought the fight leonard did against a drained lalonde and a blown up duran and hearns I have no doubt he wins them fights.

Since 82, by my scoring leonard only defeated howard, lalonde and duran. Now spanning a length of 8 years that's what i'd say could easily represent shot. His two biggest fights in this period were against the current top guys at the weight and both have a very strong case for beating him.

Whether you choose to believe the eye kept him out or not is irrelevant. The guy had 1 fight in 5 years and was a welterweight. What good would a victory really have done hagler at that point in his career?

It wasn't being shot that cost hagler that fight, it was trying to fight as a southpaw early on.

Even the age doesn't matter, hagler had proved himself clearly the best middleweight in the world. There was no harder fight that an inactive semi retired welterweight could have made.

 

While you calm yourself down,I suggest you go and actually look up the term "truth" in future.In doing so,you'll realize how much of an idiot you actually are.You just made the claim that an inactive and retired Welterweight was avoiding an active Middleweight.Evan had Leonard been active during that time,there isn't a plausible argument to be made for Leonard avoiding a fight with him.He wasn't in a position to do so.Just like Miss Marvis wasn't in a position to avoid the Light-heavyweights that called him out while he was trying to coax fighters from lower weight classes into fighting him.

You're referring to what was,even during that time,regarded by everybody as fight for Leonard to shake off the ring rust that he had picked up after over two years in of inactivity,right? And you've just acknowledged that Howard wasn't anything special through your sarcasm,you idiot.

When I did suggest you go take your cookie and **** off,I most certainly didn't mention anything about sticking it up one's own rectum.And while I'm curious you would even bring up such an activity,it is your life and nobody can tell you how you should lead lead it.

 

How do you become shot by not fighting? or fighting Kevin Howard?

You become shot against the likes of Hamsho, Roldan, Mugabi, Hearns (peak version)

what you are doing is telling me Leonard became shot by fighting nobody?

Also, his miraculous win isnt so miraculous when you got a toothless fighter in front of him

you didnt notice my mention of the fact his sparring partners boxed circles around him two weeks before the fight?

Run the tape round 6 "Sugar Ray said he was counting on the slowness of hagler. he said he lost a lot of speed"

Sugar looked great in that fight. But no doubt it was on account of Hagler's decline which is amoung the most severe I've ever seen on any fighter

Had it been Terry norris with his speed in there against Ray Leonard, it wouldve been a different outcome (as we all saw in their fight)

Compare the difference in uno mas to his next fight

The "conqueror of champions" goes from dominating to being dominated

 

Quote leonard all you want. Ali said that foreman looked slow when he just destroyed norton.

Let's step away from opinions for one second and stick with facts.

Leonard was a career welterweight.

Leonard had 1 fight in 5 years.

Hagler was the clear best middleweight in the world.

Everything else is subjective.

 

Foreman was 26 and newly crowned

Hagler had been champ 6 going on 7 years and his decline had been very much in the news 3 years before the fight

Now why did Ray wait 5 yrs to take the fight with Hagler and quoted as counting on the slowness of Hagler

that's how he won the fight; becuz there was nothing left of Hagler. So all he did was pick the fight at the right time

The slowness of Hagler did help him just as the speed of Norris was too much for Leonard. that's why Ray leonard will never be a great fighter in my book

as Ive said before, if Leonard were half the fighter you people say he is, he wouldve had no problem with Norris becuz if hagler were still good and Ray came out to beat him after 3 years layoff, then he should handle Norris who is not as reputable a fighter and at a weight more comfortable to leonard WITHOUT the layoff

 

The biggest fact.Leonard demanded a fight with Hagler while viewing the Mugabi fight.If possible,even bigger fact.He NEVER demanded a fight with Hagler before that.NEVER.

 

*******

 

Unbelievable that "go****himself" would even mention Hagler "avoiding" the lightheavies of his era,because Marv never brought up fighting them.Whereas Leonard spent 6 years teasing everyone and avoiding Hagler while discussing a proposed fight between the 2,only challenging Marv upon viewing Marv's **** performance against Mugabi.Better yet,I love cookieboy's lie that,"there isn't a plausible reason for to be made for Leonard avoiding a fight with him.He wasn't in a position to do so,"even though everyone knows that Leonard was the golden goose that dictated everything.Nice lies,cockboy.

 

there was enough left to make it a close fight, I don't even think leonard won it tbh.

when you say half the fighter "you people" say he is, what have I said he is? I've said he was a career welterweight who came out of a 5 year semi retirement to defeat the middle weight champ.

take it out of context as well if you want; do you think there was a better middleweight who leonard could have fought?

do you think there was an easier cherry pick hagler could have made at the time?

i don't know about you but i don't think a WW has any obligation to fight a MW. unless you think pacman is ducking martinez right now?

do you also think hagler ducked spinks?

 

Hagler never demanded a fight with Michael Spinks atsch

 

if the media is claiming Leonard is the best p4p out there then he should be able to prove it on the spot instead of waiting 5 years after the man is gone. takem on when they're young, like a young Terry Norris

If Leonard is boasting he wants to give Marvin a shot as he did during the first Hamsho fight, then he shouldnt be changing his tune at the end of the fight

If Sugar invites MH to Baltimore & into the ring to hype a fight with him, he shouldnt say the words "it'll never happen", like a dick teaser

& if Ray really wanted to test his mettle against middleweights, there was plenty of top contenders between 1982-1989: Sibson, Hamsho, Fletcher, Roldan, Nunn, instead of some faded has been in Hagler.

I heard Ray had some kind of fight w Mugabi in prep for Hagler. no doubt this was the broken, demoralized, sloppy leftovers from the Duane Thomas fight

 

do you think there was a tougher middleweight fight he could have made than vs hagler in 87?

 

I sure do. Hagler was really just yesterday's news, yesterday's hot fighter

Ray couldve hung around to face the fearsome & triggerfisted Nunn by late 87 or early 88 defense. Mike, who could take your head off with one sweep of his uppercut, is really tough to hit and lines you up for his hosts which come underneath. No way Ray could avoid it. Personally, I dont think he wanted to wait around for the field of contenders to get strong, so he just abandoned ship. Not one defense on record

He'd fight Lalonde any day tho. ANyone would fight Lalonde. Norris or Nunn tho was a different matter

 

so in 1987 when Leonard ended his 5 year semi retirement you think he could have picked a better fight than Marvin Hagler?

I don't think he had a meaningful victory since 1982 personally (i had him drawing with hagler).