Who should rank higher atg - toney or jones?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by lufcrazy, May 16, 2011.


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  1. lefthook31

    lefthook31 Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    Hopkins really has nothing to do with it in my opinion. I still dont get overly excited about Hopkins resume as far as quality of opposition. He doesnt have a Toney like win against a Toney like fighter on his resume. I have issues with wins over guys like Trinidad and ODH who had no business as middleweights in the first place.
     
    lefthook31, May 16, 2011
    lefthook31, May 16, 2011
    #16
  2. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    In context of his era hopkins had a fantastic resume, here are the top 10 ranked guys he beat (i've separated the top 5 and top 1 guy)

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    lufcrazy, May 16, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 16, 2011
    #17
  3. lefthook31

    lefthook31 Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    I think Hopkins has had a great career, I just dont think much of the fighters you mentioned. None even come close to what James Toney was as a fighter and Jones completely schooled him. I think the Hopkins got 20 times better chatter is a bit over played too.
    Jones may have fought comparable contenders through his career, but I dont think Jones was ever truly a LH whereas Hopkins was solid middle and often times fighting a lot of smaller opponents.
     
    lefthook31, May 16, 2011
    lefthook31, May 16, 2011
    #18
  4. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    i think it depends what people like, i love the weight jumpers and i think toney was clearly the best in this respect.

    career wise i think hopkins shits on both of these guys.

    but i also think hopkins has more tricks left up his sleeve so didn't include him in the thread.

    Between toney and Jones I think it's quite close, I've broken down their resume similarly to what I did for hopkins:

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    lufcrazy, May 16, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 16, 2011
    #19
  5. lefthook31

    lefthook31 Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    Jones
    Toney



    Hopkins


    I dont think Hopkins is even close myself. He really never took the weight jumping challenges that these two did and the more I think about it, Toney is probably pretty even considering his HW accomplishments. I dont see those kind of dangerous challenges for Hopkins. I wouldnt even pick Tarver over John Ruiz had they fought.
     
    lefthook31, May 16, 2011
    lefthook31, May 16, 2011
    #20
  6. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I agree in a way. I mean Hopkins beat more ranked contenders then these 2 did plus established himself as one of the greatest Middleweights in history. What really impresses me about hopkins is his longevity. If he manages to beat Pascal and Dawson his LHW resume will be pretty stellar also. That's based on future accomplishment which is why I didn't include him.

    Yeh the way Toney campaigned at HW with such a disadvantage in size is really impressive. to be a top 4 fighter from 1991 to 2006 is also pretty damn impressive.

    Jones obviously looks awesome on film and barely lost a round throughout his prime. I don't think he fought as tough opposition as Toney did and was it not for politics he'd have been a challenger to Dariusz for his crown but instead of encouraging a super fight the boxing world took Dariusz's crown.
     
    lufcrazy, May 16, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 16, 2011
    #21
  7. bodhi

    bodhi Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Jones and quite clearly. Toney lost (or should have) too many.

    PP is still living of Roy´s semen.

    Hopkins clearly did more than Toney and arguably than Jones.

    /thread.
     
    bodhi, May 16, 2011
    bodhi, May 16, 2011
    #22
  8. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    who do you think fought the better competition?
     
    lufcrazy, May 16, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 16, 2011
    #23
  9. DonBoxer

    DonBoxer The Lion! Full Member

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    Jones by lots.
     
    DonBoxer, May 16, 2011
    DonBoxer, May 16, 2011
    #24
  10. bodhi

    bodhi Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Toney took on the tougher challenges for sure. But he also lost more. And to inferior fighters than Jones. And Roy was more dominant. Hopkins´opposition is on par and perhaps soo slightly better than Jones´. Dominition-wise they are similar. What IMO puts Hopkins slighly above Jones is that his biggest wins and success came at around and past 40. That´s huge. And of course that there are no PP or people like that supporting him. :D
     
    bodhi, May 16, 2011
    bodhi, May 16, 2011
    #25
  11. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    but if he was more dominant against inferior fighters does it mean as much?

    aside from toney himself and hopkins i'm not sure jones has many great victories.

    his refusal to fight benn and dm really annoys me also so i might be letting that cloud my judgement.
     
    lufcrazy, May 16, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 16, 2011
    #26
  12. bodhi

    bodhi Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Well, of course it would mean more if he would have stepped up and beat bigger challenges like Benn or DM even when less dominant. But this is woulda coulda shoulda. I don´t think you should rank a fighter on that. You look on what a fighter did and try to judge it as objective as you can be. And then you can go on and compare it to what other fighters did. I don´t let a fighter not doing this or that influence my "ranking" him. I look at what he did and not on what he didn´t.
     
    bodhi, May 16, 2011
    bodhi, May 16, 2011
    #27
  13. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    it works both ways though doesn't it; if a guy does step up and take a challenge - and loses - then history isn't as favourable remembering him.

    The main reason i gave toney an edge is because he was brilliant at middleweight and kept that form going right through the divisions for the majority of his career.

    jones has two marquee victories on his resume which can never be taken away from him. he was the top ranked middleweight and super middleweight. plus he beat a legitimate top 5 heavyweight with ease.

    it's hard judging his lhw career for me, the rankings were so skewed. they never awarded hill vs maske but awarded jones vs harding. i'm sure had politics not played it's part that roy would have had to fight dm and dm would not have become obscure. however in this alternate history we live in, i suppose he did notch up some decent victories even if he never beat the man.

    i suppose the fact that he ducked benn and dariusz has to be held against him as they would have been easily two of his top 5 victories.
     
    lufcrazy, May 16, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 16, 2011
    #28
  14. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Lineal is pretty debateable and WBO didn't count for much back then, especially after Darius play acted to beat Rochiagani
     
    PowerPuncher, May 16, 2011
    PowerPuncher, May 16, 2011
    #29
  15. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    in what possible way is it debatable?

    hill and maske were 1 and 2.
     
    lufcrazy, May 16, 2011
    lufcrazy, May 16, 2011
    #30
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