How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Yes, we've been through it before. Greb was considered a worthy contender and a possible challenger..

 

WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH YOU SPEW OUT....Once again a HATE FILLED post by you who knows absolutely nothing whatsoever about the sport of boxing... talk about a "Loaded-Question" which is what you have posted here.. never in boxing history other than by yourself has it been known that Jack Dempsey avoided Harry Greb.. you have made this comment on the other forum and had your case completely dismissed as GARBAGE... you are known to be a HATER of Legendary fighters like Dempsey, Tunney, Frazier, Marciano, Pep & Tyson...You was bought 2 books for Christmas by your parents Bio's of Langford & Greb and you spew-out these ridiculous comments of how every great fighter in history was terrified to fight either fighter.... Jack Dempsey was the Heavyweight Champion of the World weighing 195-200lbs.standing 6`1`. Harry Greb the middleweight champion weighing 160-168lbs & 5`8ins.. Never ever in his entire career did Harry Greb ever fight Heavyweights of the caliber of Dempsey or World class contenders, he fought fighters upto 175lbs including Gene Tunney who "hammered Greb 4-1 in their series with Tunney beating Greb easier each time they fought and losing their first fight due to swallowing a mixture made-up to stop bleeding.. Greb's management once made a feeble offer for their man to face Dempsey yet the champion had bigger and better fish to fry and had very little interest in fighting a guy like Greb who Dempsey often used as his sparring partner.... You often claim that Greb "beat-up" Dempsey in sparring which is simply not true. Great fighters use smaller fighters in sparring so as to build-up their speed in the weeks leading up to fight night like Joe Frazier used Gipsy Joe Harris the welterweight contender as his sparring partner. Muhammad Ali would use Bossman Jones as would George Foreman, Mike Tyson would use Glen McCrory and other lighter weight fighters with fast hands to get his speed of punch upto scratch and that is exactly what Jack Dempsey done with Harry Greb... Yet in your eyes Dempsey was "Ducking Greb"... you are a clown JAB who's knowledge of this sport is zero.... does any of these articles mention Dempsey Ducked Greb or was "terrified" of Langford like you claim..

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/casey/MC_DempseyFeature.htm

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/casey/MC_DempseyChampion.htm

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/casey/MC_Dempsey.htm

You analysis of Dempseys opponents and in particular Jess Willard are laughable and proves as i have alway's claimed that you are a HATER who claims Frazier, Marciano & Dempsey are not Top 10 fighters :huh take your hate filled agenda back to where you came from and watch your Tommy Morrison DVDs

Read the Top Link and in particular what the Legendary Ray Arcel had to say.

 

True. At the time of the first Gene Tunney bout,Jack had n't fought for three years.

 

By the standard of precedence, it was a decent enough reign. Corbett, Fitz, Johnson and Willard should have their reigns compared against his. Among his immediate successors, please do take a look at their title stints as well. Corbett had one successful defense in nearly five years. Fitz lost to Jeff over two years after dethroning Corbett. Johnson had a great start emulating the drastic change in activity brought about by Jeff and Burns, defending four times in 1909 alone, but didn't defend for two years after Jeffries. Willard defended against Moran a year after Havana, then not again until Dempsey nearly three and a half years later.

Tunney was on a one defense per year pace, as were Schmeling and Sharkey.

Carnera bucked this trend, defeating Loughran and Uzcudun in legitimate title defense wins during the eight months following his ascension in what youtube footage reveals to be a legitimate battering of Sharkey. Before a year had elapsed, he would risk it yet again against Max Baer. For being a fighting HW Champion with the highest activity rate of any titleholder since 1910, and until 1938, I believe Primo belongs in Canastota.

Max Baer lost to Braddock a year after dethroning Carnera. If Max had successfully defended, I don't think he would have gotten much credit at all for who many saw as a sub par challenger. Of course Braddock sat on the throne for over two years before getting knocked out by Louis, who it can be very legitimately opined was a less worthy challenger than Schmeling. (And Joe himself seemed to agree, saying, "I ain't champion till I beats Smellin!'")

When measured against the tenures of Corbett, Fitz, latter reign Johnson, Willard, Tunney, Schmeling, Sharkey, Baer and Braddock, I think Dempsey's stretch with the championship measures up reasonably well. He did defend twice in 1920, once in 1921, and twice in 1923. Two years of inactivity did hamper his performance against Tommy Gibbons, competitive resharpening that proved valuable in dealing with Firpo. Three years of mothballs was far too much time to lose for Tunney though, when a younger Mauler was so compromised after two years for Shelby.

Jack was justifiably criticized and ridiculed at the time for not defending between 1923 and 1926, but it is a business, and he was the highest paid athlete of 1925 despite not putting the title on the line. Yes, he should have defended against Wills, but Harry himself said it wasn't Dempsey's fault, and Manassa Jack did qualify for a Tunney rematch by knocking out the conqueror of Wills. (The controversial ending of Dempsey-Sharkey is unfortunate, but Dempsey's power was starting to tell with eight rounds to go, and a longer contest would have benefited him greatly in his last title challenge.)

A defense against Greb would have been a no win situation for Jack. Either he's beating up on a much smaller man like Carp if he wins by knockout, or takes a tremendous rap for failing to take the middleweight out. As for Wills, Jack held a substantial edge in youth, and it seemed Wills may have been tailor made for him. Dempsey might have been dogged for beating up another old man like Willard. However, it remains a fact of who Jack did lose the title to, and to be defeated by Tunney, he had to defend against him in the first place, just as Burns crossed the color line with Johnson.

 

Sounds far greater than Tyson, who was obviously a unqualified fraud.

 

Good post.

Great call on Primo Carnera, he's been badly under-appreciated. The man took his craft seriously, it's a shame more observers haven't given him his dues.

 

so what you are saying is, "Ray Arcel incorrect and you are correct".. ?.. Thos articles i put up to show what legendary trainers and historians thought of Jack Dempsey because none of them come out with anything like what you are posting here.. you are forgetting that Dempsey actually wanted to fight Greb if there was demand for the fight saying. "It is possible that I might get a match with Harry Greb," he said, "and if I do and there is a call or a demand for it, I surely will take it.".. throughout Dempsey's title reign Greb lost to Gene Tunney on 3 occasions and dropped a decision to Tommy Loughran.. as great as Harry Greb was IMO he would stand no chance against Jack Dempsey in a championship fight wearing 4oz gloves not the 16oz they used when sparring each other.

 

The fact Jack Dempsey didn't fight Harry Wills or Harry Greb, the two outstanding and overwhelming # 1 and # 2 contenders of his era, automatically rates this a C at best. The poster who gave Jack Dempsey a B + must have taken one too many bong rips this morning.

 

What grade would you give Liston's reign ?

 

A couple of observations : Greb was so damn active during those days, that there wasn't a ground swell demand for the 160 pound dynamo to fight Jack Dempsey. I seldom ,as a boy read about Dempsey refusing to fight Greb,it
became a source of conversation many years later IMO. Why in the world would Jack Kearns,want this bout ? If Dempsey KO'd Greb, [and Greb in statements admitted that,"after 5 or more rounds Jack would kill me "] ,
the boxing world would cry out, "Dempsey's expected to ko middleweights,
for crying out loud ". It was a no win situation for Dempsey and Kearns..
Of course Dempsey never fought Harry Wills, though they signed for a bout for promoter Floyd Fitzpatrick, which was canceled because Fitzpatrick
couldn't come up with the money,and Harry Wills pocketed the deposit money. So Dempsey always get the rap for this cancellation, even though
the prime Dempsey would have been a prohibitive favorite to win, when Jack Sharkey beat Wills and Paolino Uzcudun kod Wills, soon after, most likely proved...
What is amazing is that the 160 pound, "seven year itch ", Greb was even considered in this post,as being the best oponent for the Heavyweight Dempsey,at that time !
Like wanting to match-up a Marvin Hagler or Carlos Monzon ,with a prime Joe Louis. So highly is Harry Greb rated...Amazing man was Greb to EVEN fight 300 bouts...His record and unique style can never be duplicated...

 

Yes Dempsey during the John Lester Johnson time when Dempsey was still a youngster, he did say that" Langford would flatten me ".His manager at that time John the Barber,was a greedy mgr, who was not concerned with young
Dempsey's welfare. But along came Jack Kearns who developed young Dempsey into the " Manassa Mauler, we know today...And the rest is history !!!