How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Oh my God. Dempsey HW title "ducked Willis-Greb" threads need to be banned for at least a month. Hell, even Rocky Marciano threads need to be banned for a month. Two of the most over-discussed fighters on this board. Leaves you with the feeling you have to attack or defend either one of them for doing something right or wrong.

 

Yeah, we could go and discuss Tyson or Lewis instead. :thumbsup

 

Very well, and fair enough.

Carp, the shortest of Jack's title opponents, was at least 5'11-1/2" tall, so he had over three inches of height Greb lacked. You've seen the photograph of Carp standing with Tunney, Dempsey and Frazier at Jack's 75th birthday bash, and while he's obviously considerably slighter than they, nor do they tower over him like Dempsey and Tunney did over Greb. It wasn't necessary for him to have his height artificially boosted to sell his title shot, as the height of Ketchel was for Johnson, and Walker's was for Sharkey at their weigh-ins. Being 5'8" never hindered Harry, but I'd have liked to seen him take on the likes of a Fulton, Willard or Wills prior to July 1921. Carp lost a hotly disputed decision over the championship distance to Jeannette in March 1914, his last defeat prior to Dempsey. He was also the only one besides Dempsey himself who had knocked out Levinski (yeah, yeah, I know, many believe it was rigged, but the fact remains that only these two got that result on their resumes by this time).

He destroyed Bombardier Wells twice, an opponent who stood 6'3" with a 79 inch reach. Within the context of 1921, this proved he could knockout an opponent with a modern super heavyweight's height and reach, and he did it twice just after Greb began his career. (Harry didn't take the 6'3" former AAU champion Martin Burke to the woodshed until 1924.) Off-hand, I can't spot anybody with the dimensions of Wells on Greb's record prior to Carp's shot at Dempsey. (Yes, I realize it's only Wells, who was also trashed twice by 5'9" two time Carp starch victim Beckett, but Beckett weighed at least ten pounds more than Greb's highest career weight.) If Harry wasn't derided as "too small" in general (and he was actually huge boned for a middleweight, with much larger hands than Walker), he would have been derided as a midget. (Never mind that Jack hated taking on shorter opponents, and shadow boxed in a four foot high cage. The deadly Langford was only 5'6-1/2" but the ridiculous contrast between himself and Fulton evoked much audience laughter, and the height and reach disparity did raise issues for Sam.)

Again, let me make myself clear. I do consider Greb the P4P GOAT, agree that he would have been a suitable challenger for Dempsey, and I've made the case more than once that his actual record against Tunney might be 3-2, with wins in fights one, two and four. The issue here with respect to highly distinguished poster McGrain is whether or not Greb should have gotten a shot before Carp, who I think would have been an appropriate challenger to Willard even before Greb's rise to MW contention, as Wills should have been for Jess.

Incidentally, what may have been the peak performance of Harry's 1919 campaign, and possibly his entire career, was when he defeated Brennan over the championship distance in Tulsa the very day Dempsey peaked in Toledo. Does Greb dethrone Jess if their positions are reversed, and who wins if Jack and Harry were to square off the same day? (And late 1919 would clearly have been the best time for this defense to occur in reality, before Carp had resumed the post war activity he needed to be able to challenge Levinski and Dempsey.)

 

Are you implying they're over-discussed, because I don't think it's at the same level. How about heavyweight threads in general. I know it's hard to resist the urge since everyone is an expert on Heavyweights, but 75% of the body is talking about Heavyweights.

 

I will take this Klompton piece to the bank. But it doesn't detract from my opinion of Dempsey's greatness, nor the fact that I have read that Greb himself was quoted as saying to reporters "after 5 rounds or so Jack would kill me". Furthermore there is no more ardent advocate of Harry Greb, than I am, but I feel that a prime Dempsey would catch up to the much smaller Greb
and put him away. I know I would be a rooting and atooting for Harry Greb,
but Dempsey,power and speed would carry the day. Cheers MC...

 

horse****. we dont award title shots based on having waited a long time. carpentier had faced nobody of note since winning a controversial dq over gunboat smith in 1914(!!) when he fought Levinsky who Greb had owned over the previous 3 years and 6 fights. In addition to that the Levinsky fight was likely fixed by Rickard for the express purpose of promoting the Dempsey contest and getting Carpentier a title to legitimize his shot. That same fall when Carpentier was touring the states on his vaudville tour he was introduced to Greb who challenged him on the spot in front of a packed audience and Carpentier had nothing to say. A year later when Carpentier was training for Dempsey Greb drove to his camp and offered to spar with Carpentier. Carpentier refused. A year later when Greb was considered by basically everyone as the best MW and LHW and an outstanding challenger for the HW title Rickard offered Carpentier a massive purse to come fight Greb in the United States at Boyles thirty acres. Carpentier declined saying he was obligated to two other fights (for far less money and far inferior competition). Those fights never materialized and instead Carpentier lost his title to Siki for less than 1/10 what he was offered to face Greb for in a fight that is largely believed to have been attempted to be fixed in Carpentier's favor not once but twice. The fact is that Dempsey had some pretty weak or undeserving challengers and Carpentier fits right into that mold. He certainly didnt want to have anything even remotely to do with Greb who would have spanked his ass like a baby. You can build up things like the Firpo fight, Carpentier fight, Willard fight, and Long count but the fact is that for every Willard and Firpo there was a near debacle like Brennan, Gibbons, and Miske and its a bit odd and pathetic that the those exciting fights Dempsey had came against his most overmatched opponents: Willard had been out of the ring for 3 years and his training camp for the fight was a joke. It was no secret that he was training half heartedly and when your best sparring partner is 155 pound journeyman Joe Chip (who was removed from actively sparring with Willard because he was making him look bad) its not a good sign. Then over a year later comes Miske who Dempsey even admits was a charity case. The newspapermen present after the fight stated Greb would have been by far a better challenger. This is not hyperbole I have the articles to prove it written the next day, not 50 years later by Dan Daniel with no sources quoted. Then comes Brennan (who Greb had also owned over the past year and a half over 4 fights). Brennan was ahead when he was stopped, had rocked Dempsey early and had nearly torn his ear off with a punch in the previous round. That was not one of Dempsey's finer moments as was noted by those in attendance. Then comes Carpentier, very exciting but if the ultra rough all time great Greb is too small for Dempsey then what do you call a fragile frenchman who had been manhandled by the best fighters he had faced? Even at that he managed to rock Dempsey to his heels in the second. Then two years off and Dempsey comes back against Gibbons who, as stated before had conclusively proven that he was NOT Dempsey's best challenger. That fight was considered dull, dismal, and was horribly attended, yet this LHW took Dempsey the distance and led over the first third of the fight. Suddenly Dempsey goes back into retirement and when he comes out he needs something exciting. Good thing Dempsey's buddy Tex Rickard had imported Luis Firpo from Argentina where Rickard had several business concerns. Firpo was brought up here because he was big, strong, exotic, and very crude. He was promoted specifically as a foreign savage, a giant that Dempsey was supposed to slay. It was ****ing storybook ballyhoo (to use a term borrowed from the era). Rickard would try it again in the near future with Chilean Quintin Romero Rojas but Rojas couldnt even make it through the stumblebums Rickard set up for him. You can bet your bottom dollar had Rojas beat a few fringe contenders he would have been the next Firpo for Dempsey to slaughter. Keep in mind that Greb was one of the first people to meet Firpo upon his arrival in the states for his 1923 stint and publicly called Firpo out. Jimmy DeForrest knew better. He wouldnt let Firpo anywhere near Greb. Firpo had enough trouble with an old fat jack Johnson in sparring, no way was he going anywhere near someone with speed on the verge of his lottery ticket match with Dempsey. That fight went exactly according to script. For a round Dempsey went life and death with one of the most crude sluggers in the history of the sport and the knocked him out. Then he retired for three years and rather than face his LONG top challenger upon his return what does he do? He and Rickard willingly accept a ban in New York (where Rickard is based) rather than fight Wills in order to face Gene Tunney (who they considered the safe bet). Dempsey is dominated over ten rounds. Loses nearly every round to Sharkey only to win by fouling him and the comes the Long Count which you seem to think was a highlite of Dempsey's career. I interpret this fight different than you apparently. I see a fight where Dempsey loses every round but the seventh. Tunney is in complet control in the seventh, gets knocked down, and Dempsey blows any chance he has by refusing to go to a neutral corner, a rule he was well aware of for this fight despite what some might say. Tunney gets up, gets on his bicycle, and by the end of the round is not only in control but is taking the fight to Dempsey. By the end of the fight Dempsey is getting battered and has nothing to offer. Not exactly one of his finer moments. But you can spin it any way you want.

 

Dempsey was quoted as saying Greb was "too small" before the Europe trip ....


[url]http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=wJBSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=iM0MAAAAIBAJ&pg=4808,6178474&dq=greb+not+too+small&hl=en[/url]


Tex Rickard was notorious for billing matches as "eliminators", through the 1920s right up to his death. Firpo won a few.

 

@klompton: That's the biggest text-wall i've ever laid eyes upon! :scaredas:

 

Burt I'll give you $1,000 if you can find me a contemporary interview with Greb where he says this. Otherwise its bull**** as far as Im concerned. Greb was as confident of his ability as any fighter in history I have never read a quote from him that even comes close to suggesting he ever thought Dempsey would beat him much less outpoint him. In fact he was extremely consistent throughout his career that he had the utmost confidence in his ability to outpoint Dempsey.