How good was Dempsey's title reign?

As I thought.

In my opinion, Dempsey's KO over Gunboat Smith in 1918 was meaningless too, never mind Greb KOing him two years and several losses later.

 

I have literally never read a quote from Greb stating anything other than supreme confidence in his ability to beat Dempsey even late in his career. He may have been more reserved in his speech (and this Im only guessing at in relation to what you might be referring to) but he certainly never said anything about Dempsey murdering him or killing him or anything else after 5 rounds. In fact I think I have an early quote of Grebs from 1918-1920 where states he is willing to face Dempsey from 6-20 rounds (6 rounders being common in Pennsylvania at that point). He was definately not opposed to fighting Dempsey 15 rounds.

 

I think Dempsey avoided Greb because Greb was too good. Greb beat everyone he fought, in very frustrating fashion, he flummoxed them. Why risk losing to Greb ?

I think the "too small" thing was brought up in good faith, by burt, and he's right. Whenever a heavyweight champion knocks out a blown-up middleweight challenger, there's a quick revision of how much of a threat the little man was, and the win is downgraded. Likewise, if the champion is to lose to a little man, he's a laughingstock ..... In some ways, it's a no-win situation. Look at Joe Louis v Billy Conn : even though Louis knocked out his best challenger, many people are quick to remark "if 170 pound Conn could blah, blah, blah" .....

The "KO punch" of heavyweight challengers were well written up at the time of Dempsey. Does he have the punch to trouble the champion ? was a common theme in pre-fight hype. Rightly or wrongly. And heavyweight champs were judged largely on their "wallop", something that pervades right up to Cassius Clay and beyond ....

None of these are EXCUSES for Dempsey's failure to fight Greb, at all.
But I can't understand why some postors deny these perceptions even existed.

 

OK, perhaps you didn't follow the conversation. Here it is again :

I SAID :

I've said it before, and you might scoff at it, but Greb's style of fighting, his lack of the KO punch and his size, was NOT generally considered heavyweight championship fighting. Rightly or wrongly, people are prejudiced. Greb as heavyweight champion would have been something completely different, perhaps TOO different. Hey, even in the 1960s there were many "old-timers" who couldn't warm to Cassius Clay's style and thought it was an insulting to watch a big heavyweight like him run around like he's a bantamweight.

Firpo and Carpentier, if they were to win, were likely to win by some "super punch". Plus, they were easily promotable along exotic "Latin" and "French" romantic stereotyping.
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NOTE : I'm CLEARLY TALKING ABOUT PERCEPTIONS, and perceived punching prowess compared to Greb's points-scoring mayhem style.

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IN RESPONSE, YOU SPECIFICALLY ASKED :


"Which huge knockouts do you think particularly impressed the public and matchmakers concerning the challenges of Jack Munroe, Georges Carpantier, John Finnegan, Jack O'Brien and Gene Tunney?

I scoff, because the idea has little merit."

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Your question : A specific question about impressions made on the public and matchmakers.


TO WHICH I REPLIED :

Carpentier was promoted as a fighter who packed a punch.
He was built up on his KO of Battling Levinsky (the only man to KO Levinsky apart from Dempsey) and tales of his 1st round KO over Britain's Joe Beckett for the European championship.
Carpentier was a KO puncher, he scored KOs.

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TO WHICH YOU RESPONDED :

When you allow Levinksy for Carpantier you let in Greb's LHW ko's also.

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But what is all this "allow" stuff ?
You asked me which KOs impressed the public, I told how he was built up on a couple of big KOs ..... now you talk about "allow" this and "let in" that, as if we're doing some sort of straight resume comparison ! Which we were not.
We were talking about perceptions and impressions, etc.

You also say :


It's a lot of crap all this really, just **** getting talked

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YES, QUITE.

I point out where you've gone wrong with, bringing it back to the original gist and meaning of the exchange :

You seem to be missing the point.
Carpentier-Levinsky was a massive promotion, and Levinsky had only ever been KO'd by Dempsey.
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And you've been going downhill ever since.


Now you've been corrected, I hope you'll be able to make more illuminated posts.

 

I don't hold any strong opinions of Greb's punching other than he didn't score KOs often, making perceptions of his lack of "KO punch" quite correct.

Obviously, going 10 rounds, never mind 15, with Greb was a particularly unpleasant and damaging experience. :good

 

Let me save you 9 pages of nonsense:

Bottom Line: Dempsey screwed up big time by not fighting both Harry Wills and Harry Greb. That is why he could never be rated over other All Time Great Heavyweight Champions who actually fought and beat the best of their era.

 

jesus, say it dont spray it

 

Well, you quite possibly didn't read it first time around either.

No, the public probably didn't even know or care about Greb's KOs and TKOs of a handful of heavyweight has-beens and tomato cans.
OK, he fought every week. Maybe I've missed something in the record and reports. If he scored a KO over anyone recognized heavyweight contender, I haven't heard of it.
I tend to doubt he scored many KOs over contenders of any size and weight.

 

Not bad, but not great either. Gibbons is under rated. Miske in his prime was rather good. While Willard was older, he was blown out in impressive fashion. C+ for me. Wills and Greb would have made it a B+. There was not a lot of talent in the division when Dempsey was King.