How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Well, for example, at his peak, he fought about 45 or 46 times in one year, and scored about 4 or 5 stoppages. And the best opponents, his best wins, were always distance fights.

klompton no doubt knows the accurate details on this.

I'd say Greb was almost exclusively a distance/decision winner, esp. in regards to the opponents of decent caliber.

Firstly, because they were meaningless results.
Secondly, because they probably weren't ballyhooed or embellished by anyone.

Anyone who was trying to promote or sell Greb as a challenger to Dempsey was not about to sell him as something he patently was not.
Most boxing writers were familiar with what Greb was about. He fought almost every week in America.

Look, if Greb's KOs of Al Bendict and Duffy Whiteboy were built up much by anyone as proof of him as a viable HW KO puncher, I've never heard of it.

 

Gibbons underrated how? Doesn't look all too impressive on film. He was also 32 years old when he fought Dempsey and might have been slightly past his prime. Gibbons did have impressive longevity and a good resume.

Miske was not in his prime during Dempsey's title reign. He was dying of bright's disease. This win does not mean that much.

 

I still fail to see what punching power has to do with anything. It is in this conversation, and was at the time, being used as a red herring to avoid the very real issue that Greb was going to be difficult for ANYONE to beat. Since when do we allow clearly worthy contenders to be passed over for YEARS because they arent bangers? Nobody was under the impression that Greb was going to go in there and blow Dempsey out of the water in one round. Even Greb stated that this would be a stupid strategy anyway and that taking Dempsey into deep water was the way to go. You cant take a guy who by his very mindset is points fighter and penalize for him that when he is as dominant as a points fighter gets. Furthermore, even the critics who felt Dempsey-Greb was not a great match rarely focused on punching power being the deciding factor as there have always been fighters who werent big bangers. Tiger Flowers was black, left handed, and a slapper, yet he was still given a shot at the title. Of course thats a big difference between Greb and Dempsey. Greb would fight anyone black or white even if they outweighed him. Dempsey could come up with millions of excuses NOT to fight guys that his fans felt he could beat easily: Hes too small (laughable), he doesnt hit hard enough (laughable), nobody would watch us fight (laughable), nobody will pay me enough (laughable), Im going on vacation for a year, his skin is too dark, etc etc etc.

 

Did Greb ever KO a decent heavyweight ?

I've never said his lack of punch was an enormous hurdle.
But along with the point burt made about heavyweights beating up on little guys being a no-win proposition, I think it's relevant to why the public probably never bought into Greb's credentials as much as Wills.
And, besides, from the point of view of a man like Rickard, when Greb becomes HW champion and no one can defeat him, perhaps people get sick of his windmill points-scoring style. Not unlikely in the age of Dempsey "the KO artist", "the mauler", and Willard "the giant".

And with some members of the press openly stating that Greb's fighting style was not heavyweight material, I think these issues might well have influenced a man like Rickard. OR ... maybe the press were doing Rickard's bidding or Dempsey's - either way, the perception was out there to some degree.

Skilled promoter or not, the idea is to have a simple man's champion. Even Tunney was too refined for Joe Public, when all was said and done. Give 'em Firpo or Gargantua The Gorilla.

No, some other KOs of his were spun well too. By British press mainly, KOs of Wells and Beckett in London.
The whole of Europe (slight exaggeration) thought Carpentier was the best fighter ever and could KO any man with a well-placed shot, so he kind of sold himself.

Of course people gave a ****.
Harry Greb was an eminently qualified challenger and a fight with Dempsey would have been big.

Dempsey avoided Greb because Greb was too good. I'm fairly certain of that.

 

Im lost then, where is the argument?

 

This is the only reason I bring it up. That's the whole point in a nutshell. :good

Greb's perceived lack of punching power WAS used at the time by doubters, skeptics or people with a vested interest to muddy his outstanding credentials.
Absolutely.

Like I've been saying all along, rightly or wrongly, prejudiced existed (and was no doubt helped along) in regards to little men with no KO punch holding the HW title.

"He's too small", "He can't punch" .... this stuff was being said in certain quarters as a statement of disapproval over the prospect of Greb as HW champion, in reality.

 

It was used by people, primarily Dempsey and Kearns, who didnt want the fight. Few if any newspapermen or critics truly felt that Greb should be prevented from challenging for the title based on his punching power. That would be the height of absurdity.

 

The idea that the championship began and ended with Rickard as promoter is completely wrong. Promoters in Philadelphia, Milwaukee, New Orleans, Montreal, Pittsburgh, Chicago (after boxing was made legal there), Michigan, etc etc were all willing to pay Dempsey well for his services to fight Greb. Many of these same promoters and more (including in places like Mexico, and Cuba) were willing to pay well for his services to face Wills. The idea that nobody wanted these fights has been expanded from a very narrow minority to include the whole of the boxing world. This simply is not the case. Dempsey could have easily fought Wills in the USA and made a handsome sum for it, or could have gone to Mexico or Cuba and done the same. His apologists have tried to perpetuate the myth that because some did not want the bout that NOBODY wanted it. This couldnt be further from the truth, in regards to both Greb and Dempsey. The money was there, the challengers were willing, promoters were crawling over each other for both matches, fans and experts largely agreed that they were challengers, time and time again the lone stumbling block to these bouts happening began and ended with Dempsey, Kearns, and to a lesser extant Rickard.

 

This I must make clear : I have read several times over the years,in very old Ring Mags,where in boxing articles,Harry Greb was quoted as saying "After 5 or more rounds Jack would have KILLED me ". As sure as I am typing this. Whether or not Greb truly believed this is open to conjecture, but read this I honestly did.
I happen to believe Harry Greb was the greatest P4P fighter that ever lived. His astounding record speaks for itself. I ,and my late dad who saw Greb tear Tunney to shreds in 1922 at MSG, are his biggest supporters. I just happen to hold Jack Dempsey in higher regard
as a fighter than most of the respected posters on ESB. They have never seen films of Dempsey at his peak,except for the Willard, Gibbons,Firpo bouts,which he won all. Their
discontent rests on his "failure " to hook-up with Harry Wills [though they did sign], and
Harry Greb,who would have been a worthy test for the vicious prime Manassa Mauler.
Of course Carpentier,who avoided Harry Greb like the plague,got the money shot against Dempsey. Either Jack Kearns and Tex Rickard, feared Harry Greb would lick Dempsey,
or thought that matching the 160 pound Greb with Dempsey was a NO WIN outcome for Dempsey,if Jack won[" so what he picked on a middleweight "], and if he lost, there goes
their mealticket, road to richness ! Personally I ardently feel that the prime Jack Dempsey
feared no man in the ring, and was advised by his braintrust. Remember we are ALL products of OUR times, and Dempsey was no different than other champions as was
Joe Louis, though much more active than Dempsey, Louis never gave a money shot to
dangerous black fighters of his time such as Lee Q Murray, Lem Franklin, Curtis Shepperd,
Jimmy Bivens etc, all who were far more dangerous than many of Louis's opponents, yet Louis get's a pass. Any of the above fighters were worthy of a money shot, but never got one. So I do believe that today eighty years later Dempsey is getting a hosing ,whilst other champions, who avoided worthy opponents during their reign, are never pummeled as the old Manassa Mauler is today.Boxing then as today was and is a business. Witness Floyd Mayweather !!!

 

You gave Demspey's title reign a B+ in the poll? A bit high.

Patterson reign wasn't as good as Demspey's. Wlad's reign to me is better than both Dempsey and Patterson's.

 

I kind of like the thread and the poll. In fact I have never seen one like it before. While I would throw out the polar disparities ( A+ and D ) here, there is some gold in the posts who argue shades of gray.

 

Gibbons was only stopped once, and it was his last pro fight with Tunney.

Wins over Norfolk, Carpentier, Miske, 2x Greb ( News decsions ), and Levinsky can be found on Gibbons resume. In my opinion Gibbons is under rated. He was a very good boxer / mover, hard to catch, and forced to fight in the dreadred no decision era of boxing.

[url]http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11254&cat=boxer[/url]

I agree with Miske was past his best, but still good. Some of Dempsey's best wins are pre-title.

 

Oh **** off.
Gunboat Smith was a washed-up piece of turd.
Homer Smith was garbage too.
I wouldn't even bother mentioning them on Dempsey's resume, and if I do please admonish me - and he beat them a couple of years before Greb did.

If they were decent, Billy Miske was the picture of health in 1920, and Meehan was 220 pounds of solid muscle. :hey

The fact that Greb couldn't punch is not important to me, but the fact that the prejudice against non-punchers existed, and the use of it as an excuse for overlooking him - along with his size - existed at the time does INTEREST me.

I'm interested in the historical record. The facts of the matter. What people were saying and doing at the time. The variety of possible reasons for events and non-events.

But you seem to have some sort of moralist agenda.
Your interest in the history of it seems to centre around taking a stand and making a moral judgement. Righting wrongs and stuff like that.
That's your thing. That's fair enough.
But its seems to interfere with your ability to grasp what other people are saying.

No, I mentioned it as an aside in the context of an already-established discussion.
You immediately started dismissing this whole idea of prejudice against 165-pound non-punchers as some fantastical story or load of horse****, as you put it. When actually it existed - either as a common perception or a piece of spin, or both.

You seem to view the whole conversation on Dempsey's relationship with Greb as some sort of moral crusade.
I can't even imagine being that involved. Seriously.

If you tell me black is white, expect an argument.
If you tell me no one said jack about a middleweight who couldn't punch's right to be HW champion, expect an argument.

I am not determined to "blame" Rickard for anything.
Rickard promoted 5 of Dempsey's 8 title fights, and 1 million-dollar non-title fight.
Rickard promoted Johnson, Willard, Dempsey and Tunney, the four world champions over 18 year period. He's the only promoter to deliver million-dollar gates at the time.
I think his preferences are as relevant as anyone's. I have reason to believe he wouldn't have fancied Greb as HW champion.
I don't understand this concept of blame.

Well, I've been saying since about a dozen pages ago that Dempsey avoided Greb because Greb was too good.
But you seem determine to ignore that, and vent your moralist outrage in replies to my posts.

Greb finished behind Brennan in a July 1922 poll, as posted earlier in this thread. And this was at his peak, after his win in the "eliminator" with Gibbons, after Brennan had been beaten about 5 or 6 times by Dempsey and Greb combined.
Yes, that means the public would pay to see it, of course. But, behind Brennan, suggests it wasn't the pressing concern for boxing fans that it should have been.
And, yes, promoters tried to make Dempsey-Brennan 3 in 1922 in NY too.