How good was Dempsey's title reign?

I saw Elmer Ray at MSG against Joe Walcott. He could hit,and Ray, and a slew of black heavyweights of that time,though not rated #1 ,were not necessarily inferior to a #1 rated heavyweight...The raw fact Mc is that Joe Louis took on
so many unrated heavyweights as Musto, Burman, Thomas, Paycheck, Roper,
Al McCoy,all white fighters,and by "sheer coincidence" ,not ONCE hooked up with a Lee Q Murray, Lem Franklin, Harry Bobo,Curtis Sheppard, Elmer Ray, Jimmy Bivins, all SUPERIOR to most of his inept unrated victims cited above!
I love Joe Louis, but the truth be told is he DID NOT FIGHT THE BEST FIGHTERS OF THAT TIME, because though he was the most active heavyweight champion ever, his mentors and promotors picked the least
dangerous paydays for him, by and large ,as Jack Dempsey's braintrust
picked Dempsey's opponents. As I have cited above not once fighting the
black heavyweight "murderers row" of that time,was not sheer coincidence, but strategic planning by the Louis management, as was Dempsey's...
Boxing for the most part is a business now, and always was...:good

 

The same Bill Tate who lost 4 and drew 1 out of 6 against Wills, managing to win only one on a DQ?

I guess the same or worse could be said in regards to Meehan vis a vis his series with Dempsey...

 

Absolutely untrue. When Dempsey won the title he took the train back to the west coast. On the way he was interviewed several times at whistle stops as to whether he would face: HARRY WILLS, Dempsey said he would not. This was in July of 1919. Wills was still considered Dempsey's top challenger when Dempsey lost the title in 1926. Now a shell game was played with various pawns like Firpo, Gibbons, etc but it was generally, if not universally conceded that Wills was Dempsey's top challenger and anyone else was considered his top "white" challenger.

 

Again, this is false. Three months after he fought Tate he faced Kid Norfolk in a fight promoted as establishing a top contender for Dempsey. Wills won easily and after Dempsey had refused to face Greb the headlines read "Only Wills remains..." At this time Dempsey had a choice, he could fight either Harry Greb, or Harry Wills. He chose to take a vacation and remain inactive.

 

Burt comments like this are utter horse**** as, illustrated in a post by me above. There was no "cancelled" fight because the contract that was signed (both of them) were bogus. Period. Even Dempsey admitted this. Go back and do some actual research before you make blanket statements like this. Being old doesnt mean you know what you are talking about in regards to this situation. You cant cancel a fight that has no date, no purse, no venue, no promoter, etc etc. The contracts Dempsey signed to fight were absolutely worthless.

 

I ask you again Bert. What does one have to do with the other. This discussion is about Dempsey, not Louis. Trying to drag Louis into the argument to distract from the actual debate wont work. If Louis "avoided" the best fighters (which is highly debateable) that discussion belongs in a different thread. This is about Dempsey's quacking, not Louis.

 

JAB, in answer to your question,I must say while growing up,I don't recall a "groundswell" demanding Louis fight any one particular black contender. NO.
But all knowledgeable boxing people of those days KNEW that these black
contenders were far more able than most all of Louis's opponents, and just
accepted this fact,without making waves...I remember for example speaking to older men at Stillman's gym, mentioning this fact I cite. Most of those great back punchers had to fight amongst themselves,as their white counterparts for the most part avoided them...So J, my point is that Jack Dempsey's braintrust as well as the later Louis advisers, chose the fighters who provided the most loot with the least danger. It is a human condition !

 

Comments like these are so funny. People seem to forget a kind of minor occurence called world war 2 which froze the title for four years. Yet you criticise Louis for fighting: Musto, Burman, Thomas, Paycheck, Roper, and
Al McCoy. All of whom he faced before WW2 and before the guys you listed were considered top HW contenders. I mean, Musto beat Sheppard in 1940 and six months later Louis kicked the living **** out of Musto... Bivins proved to be as good as any of those guys you listed and how many people here have seen Louis easily beat the far smaller Bivins (who ran like a scared rabbit all night) without even trying, raise your hands :happy. As someone else stated, Walcott cleaned those guys up prior to his fights with Louis and Louis fought Walcott. So in what bizarro world does Louis leave his duties in ww 2 and fight these guys or appear in two places at once (while hes defending against actually top rated fighters) and face these guys just because a minority of people "think" he "should" have fought them?

 

That's not true, Fulton was the favorite to beat Wills when they fought, and was being considered for a title shot at Dempsey if he got by Wills. As Janitor said, the purpose of their fight was to determine an outstanding contender for Dempsey.

Here are some of the press articles on their fight:

"Speculation seems to be particularly keen with regard to the possibilities of the Fulton-Wills meeting, which will go far toward determining whether the clever colored boxer is to become a contender for a bout with Champion Jack Dempsey."

"Frederick the Confessor is a Heavy Favorite."

"Fulton rules favorite at odds of 7 to 5."

"Harry Wills, Negro heavyweight, knocked out Fred Fulton, contender for the title held by Jack Dempsey."


This is from an article in June of 1922, which was favorable to Wills and lobbied for a fight between him and Dempsey:

"Wills has been regarded as Dempsey's most dangerous rival since the champion polished off Carpentier. The New Orleans negro, called the "Black Panther," because of his remarkable speed for a man of his size, has battered his way to the position of Dempsey's leading rival through a series of battles against such of the country's heavyweights as did not fear him. His most significant ring triumph was his knockout of Fred Fulton in three rounds at Newark, on July 26, 1920."

 

Agreed.

 

No Klompton being "old" doesn't mean I know what I'm talking about, but your opinion doesn't mean that your omnipotent either. I stick to my statement that Dempsey and Wills DID sign for a fight,as seen by a photograph taken of the event,and innumerable articles of that signing over these many years...I am truly sorry that you feel that I am "old", but I assure you K, that I won't let it happen again, I wouldn't want to annoy you..
Damn it you are a snippy cuss ! Yours ,Methuselah...

 

Yes they signed and it was a meaningless piece of paper. Dont just look at the photo. Do some research. Its easy for Dempsey to sign a piece of paper written by his friends which allows him to get out of the contract and maintain his standing with the commission.