Anyone Think Hague Was A Credible Opponent For Johnson In 1909?

There is an agenda driven post, put up by Mendozy claiming that Jack Johnson refused to defend his title against Iron Hague, in 1909.
Mendacity goes further and claims that Hague was a suitable challenger given his record , [12-1-1]

This is Hague's record up to the Langford fight.


1909-04-19Gunner Moir

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National Sporting Club, Covent Garden, London, United KingdomWKO120x3
BBBofC British heavyweight title
EBU (European) heavyweight title

1908-12-14Ben Taylor

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National Sporting Club, Covent Garden, London, United KingdomWKO2

1908-10-19Charlie Wilson

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National Sporting Club, Covent Garden, London, United KingdomWKO4

1908-06-01Sergeant Sunshine

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National Sporting Club, Covent Garden, London, United KingdomWKO4
as Corporal Sunshine

1908-05-11Jack Scales

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Sheffield, Yorkshire, United KingdomWKO2

1908-03-16Frank Craig

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Sheffield, Yorkshire, United KingdomWKO420x3
Source Matt Donnellson The Irish Champion Peter Maher

1907-10-28Jack Scales

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Sheffield, Yorkshire, United KingdomDPTS66x3

1906-12-08Charlie Knock

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Doncaster, Yorkshire, United KingdomLKO3

1905-08-05Albert Rodgers

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Doncaster, Yorkshire, United KingdomWKO6

1905-04-08175Dick Parkes172Doncaster, Yorkshire, United KingdomWKO1420x3
referee: Tom Gamble

1904-12-01Fred DrummondWKO2
date and venue unknown

1904-11-01Jack GibsonWKO2
date and venue unknown

1904-10-01Sargeant RandallWKO4

NB.Note .That Moir had been out of the ring for 2 years since being badly exposed ,and allmost decapitated by Tommy Burns.Moir had 9 fights after the Burns debacle ,winning 1and being kod 4 times, he was execrable.
Note. That Taylor had been carried for 7 rds by Jack Johnson a year earlier, before being stopped in the 8th , in a fight reporters said he could have ended whenever he chose.

Note .That the only other name of any kind on Hague's win record is Frank Craig who was a 40 year old middle weight at the time.
Note that a 20 year old Tom Cowler had Hague down multiple times before applying the crusher .
Note .That
A considerably more mature ,and experienced Cowler at 27 ,was easily beaten and out classed by a 41 year old Johnson .
15x2


The Laredo Times reported that Johnson could have easily knocked out Cowler, but let his opponent go the full distance.




Below.

The end of the Langford v Hague fight.

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This is Hague's record after the Langford fight.


1915-08-02 Bill Curzon 2-5-0
Stamford Bridge, Chelsea, London, United Kingdom L KO 3

1915-01-01 Tom Gummer 1-0-0
L KO 10
Month & Day unknown

1913-12-05 Jewey Smith 25-22-1
Sheffield, Yorkshire, United Kingdom W PTS 20 20x3

1912-08-05 Tom Cowler 20-3-1
Mexborough, Yorkshire, United Kingdom L KO 8
referee: Tom Gamble
Spike Robson the famous Flyweight held the watch. Cowler had Hague down Seven times in rounds 6 & 7. In the 8th round Cowler did his opponent a kindness and sent "Iron" out with a body blow, followed by a glancing blow on the chin. 'Mexborough and Swindon Times August 12th 1912'

1912-07-08 Bill Robb
Mexborough, Yorkshire, United Kingdom W KO 1

1911-04-24 Bombadier Billy Wells 7-1-0
National Sporting Club, Covent Garden, London, United Kingdom L KO 6 20x3
BBBofC British heavyweight title

1911-01-30 Bill Chase
National Sporting Club, Covent Garden, London, United Kingdom W KO 6

1911-01-02 Sergeant Sunshine 1-5-0
Mexborough, Yorkshire, United Kingdom W KO 9

1910-12-05 Jewey Smith 21-10-1
Sheffield, Yorkshire, United Kingdom W PTS 20 20x3
BBBofC British heavyweight title

1910-11-07 Corporal Brown 1-2-0
Sheffield, Yorkshire, United Kingdom W KO 18

1910-08-15 Private W Smith 0-1-0
Sheffield, Yorkshire, United Kingdom W PTS 20 20x3

1910-05-26 Sergeant Sunshine 1-2-0
Liverpool, Merseyside, United Kingdom W PTS 20 20x3

1910-02-21 Jewey Smith 15-9-1
Sheffield, Yorkshire, United Kingdom L PTS 20 20x3
BBBofC British heavyweight title

The 1986 British Boxing Yearbook has Smith winning as does Jan Skotnicki who researched Smith's record in Ibro journal #66. But the 1986 British Boxing Yearbook does not list the bout as a title fight.

1910-02-11 P.O. Curran 1-2-1
Old Cosmo Rink, Plymouth, Devon, United Kingdom L KO 15

Note that Hague had 14 fights after being destroyed by Langford ,he lost 6 of them 5 by ko.


My question to the estimable posters on this forum is.

Was Hague a credible world title challenger for Jack Johnson's crown ?

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I guess not.

 

Iron Hague was a gooftrooper

 

That is as accurate a description of him as I have heard.:good

 

Hague was British champ. In that era, that got you ranking to be considered a credible opponent.

Of course a century of hindsight tells us what a farce the contest would of been, but at time Hague would of had a bit of support.

 

I understand your point ,but have my doubts as to its validity.
On the 4th July 1911 Johnson signed with promoter James White to defend his title against Bombadier Billy Wells,this caused such a furore that the British government was obliged to step in and veto the contest through a court action ,it was subsequently banned.

It was felt that the sight of black champion knocking 7 kinds of **** out of a white British boxer would not be conducive to the continuing peaceful domination of those countries with coloured populations that were part of the then British Empire .

Wells was no world beater ,but he was a class above Hague,and proved it by koing him in 6 rds that same year.
Since the Wells fight was banned I think the likelyhood of a Hague challenge finding support and succeeding in going ahead would be very doubtful.
Hague gained the nominal title British champion from perhaps the worst man to hold it Gunner Moir who had not fought in 2 years when Hague stopped him.


Moir's domestic record before he fought Hague.After this he challenged Tommy Burns ,was carried until the 10th rd ,and was duly kod.

1907-02-25180James Tiger Smith162

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National Sporting Club, Covent Garden, London, United KingdomWKO120x3
Billed:English Heavyweight Title
BBBC Boxing Yearbook 2006
1906-10-29Jack Palmer

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National Sporting Club, Covent Garden, London, United KingdomWDQ920x3
BBBofC British heavyweight title
Billed English heavyweight title
BBBC Boxing Yearbook 2006
1906-02-26Jim Casey

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National Sporting Club, Covent Garden, London, United KingdomWKO820x3
Final Eliminator English heavyweight Title
BBBC Boxing Yearbook 2006
1905-02-14Peter Felix

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NSC Athletic Hall, Sydney, New South Wales, AustraliaWKO220

1904-12-20Bill Smith

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NSC Athletic Hall, Sydney, New South Wales, AustraliaWTKO620

1904-05-30Ben Taylor

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National Sporting Club, Covent Garden, London, United KingdomWPTS1010x3

1904-04-18Gunner HewittNational Sporting Club, Covent Garden, London, United KingdomWKO210x3

1904-03-21Harry Slounch Dixon

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National Sporting Club, Covent Garden, London, United KingdomWPTS1010x3

1904-02-15Bill Heveron

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National Sporting Club, Covent Garden, London, United KingdomWPTS1010x3

1903-12-12Sgt MerekelWonderland, Whitechapel, London, United KingdomWKO110x3

1903-10-05Sgt HarrisWonderland, Whitechapel, London, United KingdomWKO810x3

1903-09-26Charlie Wilson

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Wonderland, Whitechapel, London, United KingdomLTKO210x3

1903-07-25Harry Slounch Dixon

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Wonderland, Whitechapel, London, United KingdomLKO46x3

1903-07-11Charlie Haghey

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Wonderland, Whitechapel, London, United KingdomLPTS66x3

1903-06-20Fred Barrett

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Wonderland, Whitechapel, London, United KingdomWKO

Moir's record is 25 fights w13 L12 kod 7 times
Hague's record is 29 fights w20 L8 kod 7 times
Neither ever beat a man above domestic level in class.

 

Johnson was indeed no too popular over here. But I am sure the people that mattered in the NSC could of got the bout though, if it led to Johnson/LangfordII.

 

Well, the most credible opponents for Johnson in 1909 were Langford, Mcvey, and Jeanette whom Johnson avoided like the plague during his title run.

You could say GunBoat smith, who floored and TKO'd Johnson in a 4 round match in 1909 was worthy of a title shot as well.

So in essence, Johnson avoided his four best competitors, which left him for super middles, a stiff, and journeyman. One super middle floored him in 1909, the other made him look bad in a draw!

While Hague wasn't in the above 4 men's class ( Langford, McVey, Jeanette, and Smith ), he had a good record, was British champ, and could punch. Hague was a much better choice to me than say Ross who had a horrible record leading up the the Johnson match.

Johnson's manager agreed to fight Hague, but Johnson pulled out. Instead Hague fought Langford. He lost in 4, but he manged to floor Langford, which underscores he could hit!

In closing, the match was agreed upon by Johnson's manager, and Hague showed well enough vs Langford. I tend to believe Hague would do better than Ross for sure, and because he was a puncher, had a shot to upset.

My $.02 on the topic. Still want to know how much Johnson was offered to fight Hague.

 

No, but Hauge was !

 

I think the real crime is that Johnson didn't fight Al Delmont around this time. BUT NOBODY TALKS ABOUT THAT! No, sir! The Napoli Nurpleanator gets no love on classic! None! Pete'll tell ya! :bart...:twisted:

 

The Johnson v Langford return was never going to happen ,simply because the NSC would not offer enough money to Johnson to defend his title against Sam.The best offer the NSC came up with was £3,000 put forward by A .F.[Peggy],Bettinson ,the promoter and chairman of the club.

Johnson was to pay his own passage from the US and training expenses out of that.

Johnson took out ads in trade newpapers,stating he would "fight any man regardless of race,for $30,000",This was the figure Burns had received for defending against him .
There is a wealth of bull**** on this forum, promulgated by one individual ,that Johnson could have received sums of up to $100,00 for defending against Langford.
In 1911 H D McIntosh offered Johnson 60% of $30,000 to fight Langford , the venue to be decided later ,but certainly not in the US, Johnson turned him down he demanded $30,000 the same as McIntosh had given Burns.
"I don't understand McIntosh,I informed him some time ago,that I would require as much as Burns received."

"Surely if he can afford to give Burns $30,000,he can offer me an equal amount to box in a big city like Paris ,or London."



"On my way up I made up my mind that when I was on top of the ladder,I would treat others as I have been treated.
I am on top now and I am not asking a cent more than was asked by the champion who won before me.Let Langford take a share,same as I did"


Jack Johnson 1911.
As a result Johnson did not defend his title in 1911 ,He defended in 1912 ,against Jim Flynn,and he got his $30,000.

 

Priceless!:good

 

If Johnson's manager agreed to fight Hague, why didn't he go through with it?
No one has showed any evidence that Johnson agreed to fight Hague or that he signed a contract to do so.
Johnson's manager at the time was an ex fighter Sam Fitzpatrick, I think he probably would have beat Hague.:good

See Klompton's emphatic, and final .debunking of this outrageous myth on your very own thread.
P S. Smith was a serving sailor in 1909 ,not even a professional fighter. You poor chump.

Hague's record can be seen, I posted it here, the best you could say for it is that was moderate.After being flattend by Langford, Hague was kod in his next fight and lost the one after that.
Mendozy stop making a **** of yourself .I am embarassed for you

 

No posters supporting Mendozy's view point, deja vu .