Who ranks the highest at Heavyweight - Charles, Tunney or Patterson?

Patterson and Charles both won the title vacant from fighters who had been KTFO by the previous title-holder.

(To be fair to Charles, he beat Joe Louis too, a little later. Also worth noting that he beat Moore 3 x long before Patterson fought him)

 

I'm not down with that way of phrasing it. Did Foreman "outclass" Norton and Frazier? I say no. He overpowered them and stopped them early. He did not outclass them. Same here, I think.

 

I disagree on both. Charles fought stiffer competition but I don´t rank competition in reigns but competition in the whole career at hw. And there it is even. with perhaps a slight edge for Patterson.

Patterson: 13 world hw title fights. record overall: 8-5 (should be 9-4). 7 defences (5-2).
Charles: 13 world hw title fights. record overall: 9-4. 9 defences (8-1)
Very comparable, slight edge for Charles here.

Age does matter, sorry but I disagree here with you. Or do you think Benitez winning his first title at 17 isn´t worth anything? Or what Hopkins did last weekend. Age can enhance achievements.

He did something nobody before him wasn´t able to do in 80 years of boxing history. Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, Dempsey, Louis, Charles himself, Walcott ... they all failed. Patterson didn´t, he succeeded where those great fighters didn´t. Yes, that counts. A lot IMO.

 

U, that's how I have it.Tunney ,because he was a brilliant tactician,charting unknown territories. as a lightheavyweight he was the only man to ko Tommy Gibbons in 106 fights, albeit a 34 year old Gibbons. He bided his time, waiting for Dempsey to age,and the rest is history.In Tunney's last fight he
looked wonderful koing the Hard Rock, Tom Heeney. Because of Tunney's
brains and dedication, i make him, just a fraction ahead of that wonderful brave Ezzard Charles...
Floyd Patterson,I saw once against Joey Maxim at the Eastern Pkwy Arena, 5 minutes from where I resided at that time. It was a CLOSE argued decision for the wily ,defensive Joey Maxim...Patterson was still in diapers at the age of 19
in 1954...Years later I would see Floyd Patterson coaching his upstate Ny Golden Glovers...Floyd would always get a rousing reception when he was introduced at the Golden Gloves bouts...Cheers...

 

-From 1948-1958 Ezzard Charles faced 33 Ring Ranked top 10 Fighters (21-12) above 175 lbs. , there is no slight edge for Patterson other than you can say he shared the ring with Ali and Liston...so, Louis, Walcott, and Marciano (apples and oranges). Note, Patterson is like 12-7-1 against top 10 HW contenders, respectable but we are comparing him to the Cobra.

Nobody fought top fighters in as volume and as frequent as Charles. I puprosefully focused on World Title Fight achievements to give Patterson a chance. Man, overall career it is not even close who fought the stiffest comp. No knock on Patterson, he mixed it up with the best more than most, but Charles' competition was just insane. `

-Exactly, you have a slight edge for Charles in World Title fights.

-Age is special but I can't use it to vault a guy over someone who clearly did more.

 

Charles is my # 1
Joey Maxim
Jimmy Bivins
Jersey Joe Walcott
Joe Louis
Rex Layne
Bob Satterfield
Coley Wallace
Billy Gilliam

Tunney # 2
Dempsey
Dempsey

#3
Patterson
Moore
Johanason
Jackson
Bonavena

 

Charles
Patterson
Tunney

 

Overall Charles resume is far superior to Patterson´s. At hw not. It´s not just about numbers but also about quality. Charles has the higher numbers, Patterson the better quality - at hw.

Yes, Charles has a slight edge in world title fights but as said before I look at the whole career at a weight not just title fights.

Either you factor it in or you don´t. Charles did not do clearly more. Not at hw. And yes, age is special and is one of the reasons why the scale tips in Patterson´s favour. For me. The other reason is him winning back the title as the first man in history - and the list of fighters who did so after him is pretty narrow - ignoring alphabet belts of course - Ali, Foreman, Holyfield, Lewis. So, he is one of five men who did that. And the first one at that. That´s huge.

 

Well, Liston proved that Patterson couldn't hang with him for much longer than 2 minutes at their chosen profession.
He did it twice, proving categorically he was a class above him, IMO.
But call it what you want, by all means. It all amounts to the same thing.

 

So, Dempsey wasn´t in Flynn´s class either then.

 

Against ranked HoF elite: Patterson faced Listonx2, Moore, IngoX3, and Alix2, but Charles faced Marcianox2, BivinsX3, MaximX3, Johnson, Walcottx4, and Joe Louis.

Patterson: 3-5 Charles: 10-4

Against tough contender types, Patterson faced Machen, Harris, QuarryX2, Oscar, Cooper, JacksonX2, Slade, and Elis. Charles faced Baski, Valentino, Ray, Beshore, Satterfield, Valdez, Oma, LayneX3, JacksonX2, and HolmanX2.

Patterson: 7-2-1 Charles: 9-5

What exactly is your argument for Patterson having a quality advantage? Again, speaking in terms of achievement(actual wins), I would take Charles best wins over Walcott over Patterson's best in Moore. Mutliple wins over Bivins, Maxim, and old Louis over Ingo as well as Machen, Harris, Oscar, Jackson, and Cooper...etc.. Save Ingo; Satterfield, Oma, Baski, and Valentino are easily on par with Patterson's second tier wins. I see no overall quality advantage for Patterson, especially in the win department.

 

I don't know exactly what happened in those fights. Whereas we have film and a lot more info on Floyd and Sonny fights.

Also, you must be confused. Dempsey WON the second fight by 1st round KO, suggesting he was at least in Flynn's class, perhaps a class above - who cares, he levelled the score.

Patterson 's repeat effort against Liston just re-emphasized and reinforced the result of the
first match.
He was badly overmatched.

 

Fuk. Due to tunney being topical i'm learning more about him all the time.

I have my top 15 sown up

Louis
Ali
Rocky
Johnson
Holmes
Dempsey
Liston
Foreman
Lewis
Holyfield
Frazier
Tyson
Sullivan
Jeffries
Langford

I usually have charles next. However i'm rethinking that now.

I'll air my thoughts: so charles beat bivins, maxim, louis, walcot and lost to some top rated heavyweights also.

Aside from one knockdown tunney looked unbeatable at heavyweight. He beat some top guys too but most notably greb and dempsey.

Louis is a comparable victory to dempsey. Greb is comparable to bivins. Has tunney got another great victory that ranks along walcot? Perhaps his second victory over dempsey can compare.

Charles heavyweight run was inconsistent and short.

Hell i'm putting tunney 1 place above charles based on consistency. Patterson ranks below these two with moore being his best victory imo.

After my top 15 it goes

Tunney
Charles
Walcot
Patterson
Schmeling

I think anyway. I'll double check and edit as appropriate.

 

Ok it was:

Louis
Ali
Rocky
Johnson
Holmes
Dempsey
Liston
Foreman
Lewis
Holyfield
Frazier
Tyson
Jeffries
Sullivan
Langford
Charles
Walcott
Wills
Jeannette
Patterson
Fitzsimmons
Tunney
Baer
Schmelling
Sharkey

I now have it:

Louis
Ali
Rocky
Johnson
Holmes
Dempsey
Liston
Foreman
Lewis
Holyfield
Frazier
Tyson
Jeffries
Sullivan
Langford
Tunney
Charles
Walcott
Wills
Jeannette
Patterson
Fitzsimmons
Baer
Schmelling
Sharkey

 

Yeah, notice how Patterson faced mostly bigger man while Charles faced mostly men of his size or smaller? I take the HoFers on Patters´ns resume at hw also over Charles.

No Chuvalo? Also it´s quite clear that Patterson´s quality here is better. And his record should be 10-0.

Sorry, like said before Patterson´s quality in contenders is better and he was more successful too. Charles has a slight edge over Patterson with his Walcott wins in the HoF department though. But Patterson had his stylistic nightmare and the greatest against him ...