Gene Tunney: Is he a top 10 ATG heavyweight?

Who did Tunney not fight, who was left for him to fight if he did not clean out the division

 

As I was saying ,
Tunney imo wud beat a peak 64-67 Ali .

His jab , movement , skill was a blu-print of his own ,
style.
it makes me question how overrated he was .
Ali would not like some1 else dancing, and jabbing at him. . hoe embarresed he wud b3
i also question how he wud handle being the aggressor.. and having to press the issue ...
only to run into countless left and the rights .

 

You mean the way Sharkey beat the **** out of him for 6 rounds, including almost knocking him out in the first round, only for Dempsey to cheat and knock Sharkey out with a double uppercut to the balls? Sharkey wasn't knocked out by the left hook, he was down on the ground in agonizing pain from the illegal shot to the balls. Dempsey should have been disqualified. Sharkey had been giving him a boxing lesson the whole fight.

 

Greb, Gibbons, Dempsey (twice) Heaney out-trump old fighters in Charles, Walcott & Moore... Dempsey (twice) and Heaney also out-trump Floyd Patterson twice in the case of Liston..

 

This content is protected

Larry Gains once said "Godfrey was the best of them all. I've sparred with Dempsey and fought just about every good heavyweight out there and I will tell you, George Godfrey was the best. I was afraid of only two men in my life, My Father and George Godfrey."



TUNNEY SPURNS GODFREY MATCH



"plans for a battle between geney tunney, former american lightheavyweight champion, and george godfrey, negro heavyweight, as the feature attraction on the annuel christmas boxing carnival in madison square garden on dec 18, today were abandoned. it was announced by the officials of the fund. billy gibson manager of gene tunney declinded the prooffered match. according the the fund officials, gibson asserted harry wills is the only negro heavyweight tunney will box." - los angeles times nov. 4 1925





EASTERN SNAPSHOTS by W. Rollo Wilson



Nov.12, 1925-The Baron of Leiperville is home again with wonderous tales of the mighty deeds of the "Shadow" along the gilded slope. The "Shadow" is just another way of denoting Gorger George Godfrey, Jimmy's (Dougherty) outsize white elephant. For white elephant George seems now to be. Nobody wants to fight him for love or money. Mr. Wills unostentatiously draws the color line. Mr. Tunney is more blatant in his announcement to the same effect. "I'll fight Harry Wills," broadcasts James Joseph, "but I draw the color line on George Godfrey."



Two things may be on the mind of the Apollo of Greenwich Village, Perhaps he thinks that one "shot" with Wills would give him enough of the filthy lucre for his future earthly needs. Win or lose he would be "in." Fighting Ole Black Lightning [Godfrey] would be a case of all to lose and nothing to gain, he probably thinks. At this time Billy Gibson and Tunney are saying that the Big Three of Boxing are Dempsey, Wills, and the modest Gene. Godfrey would fain make it a foursome, but you can be jolly well sure that the triumvira will continue to say him nay.



One of the first acts of [Dougherty] on his arrival was to release another challenge in the general direction of the above-mentioned Big Three. His latest offer is this:

All any promoter has to do is get Harry, Gene or Jack to sign the papers and pay them whatever they want. Godfrey will come in without asking for a dollar. The aftermath will provide the Dougherty clan with all they will want, because they feel that George can take any of the three.



As is well known Dougherty and Dempsey are the best of friends. Last summer a year ago (1924) Dempsey visited the baronial halls (Leiperville). While here the subject of a bout with George was broached. Jack declared that if he fought at all he would fight Wills, but not Godfrey. Jimmy pressed him for the reason and he said : "Godfrey is a big strong fellow and is young, Wills is getting older and I think he will be the easier man of the two. That is the reason I prefer to fight him, if I fight." - ROLLO WILSON was often referred to as "the dean of the Black Press.





"Tunney wanted nothing to do with Godfrey--plain and simple--too tough a fight. Godfrey is vastly under-rated. His record and career are somewhat mired in mystery. So many DQ's, knockouts and damn mystifying losses. I have no doubt, for instance, that he had the cuffs on against Sharkey. The high number of DQ's has more to do with him fighting to order than it does with him being sloppy. Tunney could outbox most heavies and I don't doubt that he could outbox George Godfrey for 5 or six or even ten rounds. However, George was fast for his size, was adept at chasing men down and could hit like a team of mules. If this were a fifteen round fight, I see Godfrey having a hell of chance catching up to Gene. Remember that Tunney's heavyweight resume is not that long or overly impressive. His two best wins were against Dempsey--over 10 rounds--and it is probable that Jack was past it then. Godfrey handled Larry Gaines fairly easily and Gaines was a boxer in both the mold and style of Tunney. Gaines stated that he feared only two men in his life, his father and George Godfrey. George was a beast--big, athletic, huge puncher and surprisingly good speed and movement for a man his size. I think in his prime, 1925-1931, he was about as good as it got. Nobody really wanted to fight George, and for good reason. Tunney avoided him like the plague. In his prime, with no handcuffs, and this is strictly my opinion, I think he could have beaten, Tunney, Sharkey, Carnera and maybe even Dempsey(certainly a post 1926 Dempsey)."- Boxing Historian Kevin Smith






"Not only did Tunney duck Godfrey but so did Dempsey and Wills. From late 1923 Baron (James) Dougherty issued challenges almost daily for Wills to take on Godfrey, who was Philadelphia's greatest drawing card. Promoters Herman Taylor and Bobby Gunnis figured such a match in Phila would do between $250 K to $500 K. and the winner would be the "logical challenger" for Dempsey. Dougherty offered all kinds of perks to Wills including that Godfrey would take the match for $ 1.



I think Godfrey was the most handcuffed fighter of all time. When we interviewed Dougherty's son Howard, who was also a promoter and drove Godfrey across country for his campaign in California, He talked of all the concessions they had to make in order for Godfrey to meet high rated fighters including carrying opponents, fouling out, etc. His loss to Risko was a case in point as some fair eyewitness scribes have noted that Godfrey easily handled Risko for the first eight rounds at Ebbetts Field then Risko made a courageous stand in the last two rounds and they awarded him the decision.



It was widely understood in Philly that Godfrey agreed to "carry" Risko, that his first two matches with Renault were "smellers" and his "foul-outs" were "ordered." Today People don't realize that one leading black challenger (Wills) was tolerated because of his "good name" with the New York commission but two top black challengers were frowned on. Godfrey and his management (Dougherty) tried to alleviate the situation by attempting to lure Wills into the ring by any means, but of course Wills and Paddy Mullins were not about to risk their position that they earned by taking on young, and very dangerous opponent like Godfrey.I still believe Godfrey was the most "handcuffed" boxer of all time. Being the "most handcuffed boxer of all time" (my opinion) doesn't mean that he was the best of his period, just the "most feared" with the cuffs off. By the way check out photos of Godfrey pre 1926 before his frustrations caused him to gain weight. His body was ripped with muscle and he was always in top condition."- Chuck Hasson

 

Gibbons and Dempsey were well past there prime when Tunney beat them. They were no spring chickens themselves.

I would pick Charles, Moore, and Walcott easily over Gibbons and Heeney. Heeney was a gooftrooper. I would pick all three over greb as well. Greb also beat Tunney twice.

 

your describing a totally different fight to this one..

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X2HOhAEYvM&feature=related[/ame]

 

I have Sharkey ahead 5 rounds to 1. Hurt Dempsey badly in round 1, outboxed him. Dempsey hit sharkey in the balls in round 7, you can see an agonizing painful look on sharkey's face right before Dempsey cocks him with a left hook. Had Dempsey not cheated, Sharkey was on his way to a clear unanimous decision win. Dempsey does not get full credit for this victory. This win is controversial.

 

"protect yourself at all times".. Classic Dempsey!
The Sharkey fight i believe tells us more about Dempsey than any other fight, he still had championship stamina, iron jaw, terrific body punching, brilliant defence and exceptional will to win.. yet it was a past prime Dempsey but far from shot against a near great prime Sharkey... both was fighting dirty, clinching, holding & hitting with Dempsey being a master at both legal and illegal infighting.. Dempsey was holding while boring his head into Sharkeys face.. as Sharkey turned to complain "it was over"... vintage Dempsey yet not good enough to beat the master boxer Gene Tunney before or after this fight...we can roll the clock back 15 months and a prime Tommy Gibbons & Harry Greb was both no match for the great Tunney...how good was Tunney's Heavyweight resume "EXCEPTIONAL"

 

is Holyfield vs Tyson 1 & 2 controversial
is Foreman vs Cooney controversial
is Tyson vs Botha controversial
is Tyson vs Biggs controversial
is Marciano vs Charles II controversial

 

Can we just admit Tunney is not Top 10 HW material and is arguably not even top 15.

His Heavyweight resume is weak. Not even much better than Schmeling or Michael Spinks.

 

no.....are you saying these historians are all wrong

Boxing Historian Tracy Callis rates Tunney No6 Heavyweight ever
Boxing Historian Nat Fleischer rates Tunney No8 Heavyweight ever
Charley Rose ranks Tunney No6 Heavyweight ever
WBM Poll in 1974 rated Tunney No7 Heavyweight ever
Nat Loubet Historian rated Tunney No6 Heavyweight ever
Historian Bert Sugar rates Tunney No5 Heavyweight ever
Historian John Durant rates Tunney No5 Heavyweight ever
Bill Brennan rates Tunney No5 Heavyweight ever
Historian Arthur Harris rates Tunney No5 Heavyweight ever.

 

There's no reason why Tunney should have fought Godfrey in 1925, since he had beat fighters who were ranked higher than Godfrey.

It is true that Tunney drew the color line completely when he was champion though.
Still, Godfrey dropped decisions to Sharkey (in 1926) and Risko (in 1927), meaning his form wasn't any better than Heeney's at that time.

 

Tunney arguable ducked Sharkey, Sharkey could have beaten Tunney. Tunney definitely should have fought Sharkey over Dempsey one of the times, as Sharkey clearly proved he was better than Dempsey by 1927, before Dempsey cheated. Dempsey was very unimpressive against Sharkey. Iron Jaw? Sharkey couldn't hit, yet had Dempsey all but out. I didn't see any brilliant defense, considering how much sharkey landed on him. Will to win? if you call andrew golota ball shotting will to win, then yes cheat to win. Dempsey's body punching was ok, but Sharkey was controlling the whole fight. Many Many champions would have beaten a 1927 jack dempsey.


Tunneys HW resume is not impressive. He never fought Jack Sharkey or George Godfrey. Two hall of famers and top contenders from his era. Not to mention missing out on Harry Wills, Larry Gains, and Max Schmeling.

 

Gene Tunney ducked George Godfrey

Larry Gains once said "Godfrey was the best of them all. I've sparred with Dempsey and fought just about every good heavyweight out there and I will tell you, George Godfrey was the best. I was afraid of only two men in my life, My Father and George Godfrey."



TUNNEY SPURNS GODFREY MATCH



"plans for a battle between geney tunney, former american lightheavyweight champion, and george godfrey, negro heavyweight, as the feature attraction on the annuel christmas boxing carnival in madison square garden on dec 18, today were abandoned. it was announced by the officials of the fund. billy gibson manager of gene tunney declinded the prooffered match. according the the fund officials, gibson asserted harry wills is the only negro heavyweight tunney will box." - los angeles times nov. 4 1925





EASTERN SNAPSHOTS by W. Rollo Wilson



Nov.12, 1925-The Baron of Leiperville is home again with wonderous tales of the mighty deeds of the "Shadow" along the gilded slope. The "Shadow" is just another way of denoting Gorger George Godfrey, Jimmy's (Dougherty) outsize white elephant. For white elephant George seems now to be. Nobody wants to fight him for love or money. Mr. Wills unostentatiously draws the color line. Mr. Tunney is more blatant in his announcement to the same effect. "I'll fight Harry Wills," broadcasts James Joseph, "but I draw the color line on George Godfrey."



Two things may be on the mind of the Apollo of Greenwich Village, Perhaps he thinks that one "shot" with Wills would give him enough of the filthy lucre for his future earthly needs. Win or lose he would be "in." Fighting Ole Black Lightning [Godfrey] would be a case of all to lose and nothing to gain, he probably thinks. At this time Billy Gibson and Tunney are saying that the Big Three of Boxing are Dempsey, Wills, and the modest Gene. Godfrey would fain make it a foursome, but you can be jolly well sure that the triumvira will continue to say him nay.



One of the first acts of [Dougherty] on his arrival was to release another challenge in the general direction of the above-mentioned Big Three. His latest offer is this:

All any promoter has to do is get Harry, Gene or Jack to sign the papers and pay them whatever they want. Godfrey will come in without asking for a dollar. The aftermath will provide the Dougherty clan with all they will want, because they feel that George can take any of the three.



As is well known Dougherty and Dempsey are the best of friends. Last summer a year ago (1924) Dempsey visited the baronial halls (Leiperville). While here the subject of a bout with George was broached. Jack declared that if he fought at all he would fight Wills, but not Godfrey. Jimmy pressed him for the reason and he said : "Godfrey is a big strong fellow and is young, Wills is getting older and I think he will be the easier man of the two. That is the reason I prefer to fight him, if I fight." - ROLLO WILSON was often referred to as "the dean of the Black Press.





"Tunney wanted nothing to do with Godfrey--plain and simple--too tough a fight. Godfrey is vastly under-rated. His record and career are somewhat mired in mystery. So many DQ's, knockouts and damn mystifying losses. I have no doubt, for instance, that he had the cuffs on against Sharkey. The high number of DQ's has more to do with him fighting to order than it does with him being sloppy. Tunney could outbox most heavies and I don't doubt that he could outbox George Godfrey for 5 or six or even ten rounds. However, George was fast for his size, was adept at chasing men down and could hit like a team of mules. If this were a fifteen round fight, I see Godfrey having a hell of chance catching up to Gene. Remember that Tunney's heavyweight resume is not that long or overly impressive. His two best wins were against Dempsey--over 10 rounds--and it is probable that Jack was past it then. Godfrey handled Larry Gaines fairly easily and Gaines was a boxer in both the mold and style of Tunney. Gaines stated that he feared only two men in his life, his father and George Godfrey. George was a beast--big, athletic, huge puncher and surprisingly good speed and movement for a man his size. I think in his prime, 1925-1931, he was about as good as it got. Nobody really wanted to fight George, and for good reason. Tunney avoided him like the plague. In his prime, with no handcuffs, and this is strictly my opinion, I think he could have beaten, Tunney, Sharkey, Carnera and maybe even Dempsey(certainly a post 1926 Dempsey)."- Boxing Historian Kevin Smith






"Not only did Tunney duck Godfrey but so did Dempsey and Wills. From late 1923 Baron (James) Dougherty issued challenges almost daily for Wills to take on Godfrey, who was Philadelphia's greatest drawing card. Promoters Herman Taylor and Bobby Gunnis figured such a match in Phila would do between $250 K to $500 K. and the winner would be the "logical challenger" for Dempsey. Dougherty offered all kinds of perks to Wills including that Godfrey would take the match for $ 1.



I think Godfrey was the most handcuffed fighter of all time. When we interviewed Dougherty's son Howard, who was also a promoter and drove Godfrey across country for his campaign in California, He talked of all the concessions they had to make in order for Godfrey to meet high rated fighters including carrying opponents, fouling out, etc. His loss to Risko was a case in point as some fair eyewitness scribes have noted that Godfrey easily handled Risko for the first eight rounds at Ebbetts Field then Risko made a courageous stand in the last two rounds and they awarded him the decision.



It was widely understood in Philly that Godfrey agreed to "carry" Risko, that his first two matches with Renault were "smellers" and his "foul-outs" were "ordered." Today People don't realize that one leading black challenger (Wills) was tolerated because of his "good name" with the New York commission but two top black challengers were frowned on. Godfrey and his management (Dougherty) tried to alleviate the situation by attempting to lure Wills into the ring by any means, but of course Wills and Paddy Mullins were not about to risk their position that they earned by taking on young, and very dangerous opponent like Godfrey.I still believe Godfrey was the most "handcuffed" boxer of all time. Being the "most handcuffed boxer of all time" (my opinion) doesn't mean that he was the best of his period, just the "most feared" with the cuffs off. By the way check out photos of Godfrey pre 1926 before his frustrations caused him to gain weight. His body was ripped with muscle and he was always in top condition."- Chuck Hasson