*How close in Percentage-Terms was Tyson to PEAK/BEST when he KTFO by Bummy Douglas?*

I believe that tyson had not showed any physical decline at all and had he trained fully noone would complain. Other fighters of the past suffer damaging losses but most overturned them or fought much more often for a longer period of time.

He's number 12 on my atg list btw.

 

I think 8-12 is fair...and while I am not a Tyson fan at all...I have even been called a hater on here....I don't see how you can not notice a decline in his performance in the Bruno fight prior to Douglas as compared with the version that was fighting every 2 months a year prior to that!

 

There's no hard evidence. But there were rumours.
Rumours that were denied by the Tyson camp, but then they always are, aren't they ?

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/1987/07/30/sports/tyson-stock-is-up-for-tucker-fight.html[/url]


Tyson Stock Is Up For Tucker Fight

By PHIL BERGER, Special to the New York Times
Published: July 30, 1987

Since the early betting line established him as a 7-1 favorite against Tony Tucker in the fight for the undisputed heavyweight title here Saturday, Mike Tyson's stock has gone up at sports books across this city. Depending on the vagaries of the wagering hour, Tyson has been favored lately at odds from 10-1 to 14-1.

But even as the sense of Tyson's invincibility against foes such as Tucker, the International Boxing Federation champion, has grown, another line of thought has begun to circulate. This one considers Tyson himself as a potential threat to his success - his own worst enemy, so to speak.

That premise has been pushed so hard lately - with reports of Tyson's turning ''uncontrollable'' and even bolting his training camp - that following the final news conference today for Saturday night's fight, the 21-year-old Tyson addressed the situation. ''Anything,'' he said, ''that makes me go off the track, I'm not going to do it.''

Trainer Rift Denied

Tyson denied reports that he and his trainer, Kevin Rooney, had been at odds lately. So did Rooney.
''I don't know who starts those rumors, but they're untrue,'' said Rooney. ''We never shout at each other.''
Rooney said the reports of dissension in the Tyson camp had prompted his mother back in New York to phone and ask about them.
''There must be a spy in the gym, making up stories,'' Rooney said. ''I don't have to yell at Mike Tyson. Once he's in the gym, he's a very hard worker.''
Another report had Tyson jumping camp to fly to Los Angeles to be with his friend, the television actress Robin Givens.
But Jim Jacobs, co-manager with Bill Cayton of Tyson, said the story was untrue. Jacobs insisted that Tyson left camp here July 17 and flew to Albany to see Camille Ewald. She is the 81-year-old woman in whose Catskill, N.Y., home Tyson has lived since being paroled at age 14 from an upstate New York juvenile corrections facility to his boxing mentor, Cus D'Amato. D'Amato eventually became Tyson's legal guardian and Tyson would introduce Ewald to visitors as his ''mother.''
''Camille,'' said Jacobs, ''was just operated on. Mike called and asked if he could see her.''

Impetus for Rumors

The impetus for the present round of rumors and whispers about Tyson's potential for self-destruction was an incident that occurred in Los Angeles June 21. Tyson is accused of bear-hugging a female parking lot attendant and demanding a kiss, and then striking with his open palm a male parking lot supervisor who came to her defense. He has been charged with assault with a deadly weapon (hands) and battery, both of which are misdemeanors, and is scheduled to be arraigned in Los Angeles Municipal Court Aug. 26.
Tyson and other members of his camp declined to comment on the Los Angeles incident, saying they had been advised not to by the fighter's Los Angeles attorney.
The thesis that Tyson is wired to undo his success is not new. Early in his national exposure, certain boxing men would say of Tyson that he was a ''time bomb'' waiting to go off, but the insinuations were rarely made on the record or with any real substantiation.

The underlying premise of such postulations was that the intense fight itinerary Tyson was on - boxing about once a month - was so pressurized that eventually he would want to bust out. And when he did, the theory was, he would harken back to the impulses that had ruled his life before his hooking up with D'Amato.
Curiously, Tyson said today that D'Amato had warned him that with success would come just the sort of complications he is experiencing now.
''He told me,'' said Tyson, ''there's nothing you can do about it - that it's bad to let it drive you crazy.''

 

Another interesting one, published January 14, 1988 (week before Holmes fight)

Wallace Matthews wrote :

Now, eight days before Tyson's defense against Larry Holmes, the rumor mill is grinding again. According to sources who have seen Tyson's recent workouts, the champ was rocked - and, some said, dropped - by sparring partner Oliver McCall over the weekend. Interestingly, Tyson's co-manager, Bill Cayton, has been telling everyone who will listen that McCall (11-0-1, 11 KOs) is "the best heavyweight prospect we've seen since Mike Tyson."
There is concern among boxing people about the health of Jim Jacobs, Tyson's co-manager, who has been in and out of the hospital several times in the past few months. Jacobs was ill when his lightweight, Edwin Rosario, fought Julio Cesar Chavez in November, and remained in his Las Vegas hotel room the entire week except to attend the fight, and he did not look healthy sitting at ringside. Then, in early December, Jacobs did not appear at a Tyson-Holmes news conference, and soon afterward was hospitalized for surgery on what Cayton said was an "abscessed colon." Last week, Jacobs was hospitalized and operated on again, for a recurrence of the same condition. Although Cayton insists Jacobs is "fine" and will be released from the hospital "any day now," other sources who refused to be named say Jacobs is not at all well and will not attend the Tyson-Holmes fight - the first time he has failed to be at ringside for a Tyson bout. For Jacobs to miss the biggest bout of Tyson's career would indicate his illness is more serious than the camp is letting on.

 

Tyson looked great when he was winning and so did a young joe louis but then he came up against max schmeling, a seasoned experienced fighter with a plan, Tysons max schmeling was a driven james buster douglas. thats it. You cant blame his training or his corner.

Tysons training was chaotic at times but still adequate throughout his title run. some camps went beter than others, but he was always ready to fight when the bell went.

 

Tyson was a great fighter but a great "on top" fighter. If he could beat a fighter to the draw, smash him a few times "blind" then he became more driven, excited and his confidence grew as his opponent became more discouraged and disheartened. success breads success. Then he could produce "wild tenacity".

The less Tyson had coming back at him the more encouraged Tyson became. Now if Tyson trained harder or he had great corner advice he still needed to get in and out without being hit in return to get the confidence required to try out the "explosive stuff" some people believe he was capable of producing on a whim.

Tyson could not produce "explosion" or "wild tenacity" on a whim because it required the other guy being frozen with confusion or being down right discouraged. Douglas was neither confused or discouraged so Tyson never got out of the blocks. A fully or adequately trained Tyson would still be discouraged if he was getting hit each time he tried anything.

Douglas put Tyson out of his comfort zone because he was having success. Douglas was in the zone! He had Tyson where Tyson wanted his victims to be -Tyson was the one who was discouraged because each time he drew a jab from buster it was a feint. Tyson paid for buying feints all night and was stepping into punching range naked. Mike was set up for counters when ever he tried anything. where ever his kisser was that night Douglas had a punch on the end of it.

Douglas could read tyson.

 

I disagree with you at times on this board, but I don't understand how others don't agree with your statement above.

 

A decline in performance yes, but he hadn't suffered any physical decline, signs of wear and tear etc. His speed and power was still there, he was just no longer using it effectively.

A prime tyson bobbing and weaving is much better than a prime tyson throwing everything into one punch. But physically it's still the same tyson, it's the gameplan that changed imo.

The tyson that bombed out holmes and spinks, the one that established his greatness, should have no problems with any version of douglas. Douglas is of the mccall/rahman category. Unlike lewis, tyson never conquered that demon, nor attempted to.

 

The Tyson who bombed out Holmes and spinks was having things his own way. In both fights Tyson had a good start and stayed on top. neither holmes or spinks could find an answer or discourage Tyson with any of their own sucsess.

Tyson could not produce "explosion" or "wild tenacity" on a whim because it required the other guy being frozen with confusion or being down right discouraged. Douglas was neither confused or discouraged. buster seemed to know what tyson was going to do before he did it so Tyson never got out of the blocks. A fully or adequately trained Tyson would still be discouraged and frustrated if he was getting hit each time he tried anything.

 

You continue to make idiotic posts. Train for a run and run as far as you can, then start to not train so hard, go out drink, put on weight, and try and make that same mark in the same time. It's simple common sense.

 

Clearly you rate tyson more than I do. I don't really think douglas was ever that good. I think he fought a great fight against a great fighter in one of the biggest upsets in history. I really don't think he was anything special and that someone of tyson's ability when fully focused should have no issues with someone of buster's ability.

You think douglas is the dogs bollocks which would mean this loss isn't really that bad.

I think douglas should have been no more than a routine defence and this loss is terribly damaging to his legacy.

 

Its no worse for tyson than it was for joe louis when he was first KOd.

with hindsight there was always a great fighter trying to come out of douglas but he either did not get the breaks or was too evenly matched on the way up to really stand out.

On paper douglas wasnt that good but sometimes this dosnt tell the real story. most champions are groomed never to be matched in 50-50 fights until geting a title shot. busters first opponent was 6-0. in fact 2 of his first 4 opponents were unbeaten. in his first year Buster was matched with david bey another prospect far too soon. douglas was also matched as "the opponent" against steffen tangsted, tex cobb, jessie ferguson (then 11-0), greg page, mike wiliams, unbeaten tony tucker, trevor berbick, oliver mccall when they were all good fighters. so douglas had alreasy upset good fighters as the "opponent".

buster did disapointed me against tucker , even his own father had washed his hands of him - such was his frustration with his own son. , so by rights buster should not have been given a chance against Tyson.

Obviously buster was one of those fighters who learned from all this. He put it all together for one night.

 

tyson was more frustrated than poorly trained. he was not overweight. he needed a cool clear head and the experience of a 50-50 struggle to call upon but he had not had one yet. tysons corner couldnt give him that experience during the fight any more than jack blackburn could magic up joe louis enough seasoning to overcome max schmeling first time around.

 

I completely disagree. Louis lost to schmeling; a great heavyweight and former champion. A loss he would later overturn.

Tyson lost to a fringe contender and never overturned it.

 

When should Tyson have "overturned" his loss to Douglas ?

And Douglas wasn't a fringe contender he was a good fighter...surprised this thread is still going honestly