*How close in Percentage-Terms was Tyson to PEAK/BEST when he KTFO by Bummy Douglas?*

well my list atm is

louis
ali
rocky
johnson
foreman
holmes
dempsey
liston
lewis
holyfield
frazier
tyson.

the only thing stopping tyson being above the group of lewis/holy/frazier is purely his lack of overturning the douglas loss. had he overturned douglas or atleast beaten holyfield prior to going prison he cracks my top 8.

everyone on my list defeated every non great fighter they fought during their prime years. as i said previously, a loss to a great fighter shouldn't damage one's legacy.

 

tyson was still a great fighter when he came out of prison and good enough to be a world champion again.

but nobody calls this win "explosive" or containing "wild tenacity". Tyson wins in "on top" mode and hes great. The tucker win was a good performance, it wasnt great.

tillis, ribalta, bonecrusher, bruno and part of the thomas fight..

do you think ali would have lost to cleveland wiliams or mildenburger without angelo dundee?

sound wins but he did not look like king kong because he wasnt in "on top mode".

TYson was made to look sloppy because he was frustrated that he wasnt on top. He wasnt looking that tired, he was puzzled. sometimes fighters have to find answers for themselves in the ring, the best advice wont work if there isnt the seasoning there to stay cool and focused during the storm.

 

He was a garbage fighter when he came out of prison. His only 2 good showings were Golota and the Holyfield 1 (Which he lost). He only the belts because he fought 2 of the worse champions ever. Bruno (who hed already beat 6 years prior) and Bruce Seldon (no comment). If the titles had been held by Holyfield, Bowe, Foreman or Lewis, does Tyson still became champion?

Tyson isnt the only one to have nights where he doesnt look spectacular. Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield, Ali all have more than their fare share.

And he turned the fight around and he got the W.

Totally different styles. Alis style was all natural, it was unique, it wasnt soemthing that Dundee taught him. If Ali never had a trainer he still would have been Ali. (But dundee did save him against Cooper and Fraizer 3). Tyson being a short heavyweight who was programmed for a particular style, he NEEDED someone to teach him this style and keep it in check. He coudlnt afford to rest on his laurels due to his height (Which was always his achilles)

Doesnt matter, the fact is, he won. As i stated before many ATGS have had nights where they didnt look too spectaular.

Your just talking **** and you know. Tyson looks awful straight from the first bell, he has a bit of a burst and is then lackluster, Douglas only looked good because Tyson looked so poor.

 

Tyson is clearly someone how needed guys with a brain around him and not just yes men.

Ignorant people think he blitzed the division with his power, when tyson was trained properly it was his defence that won him fights which is why he began to look worse as a fighter. There was no physical decline and he hadn's had too many wars, I don't even think he burned out. His gameplan had definitely changed and surely anyone can see that.

Without a top class trainer he was just focusing on his power and not his defence nor accuracy.

Tyson as a great boxer is about as raw as they come in the modern era. He didn't walk into a gym and box from a young age; he got scouted because of his muscle mass. He was refined into a great fighter but the yes men took over.

We'll never know if he would have beaten douglas or holyfield in 91 but it is ignorant to assume his preparation played no part in the loss.

 

EXACTLY, ive been stating this or a while now. Had Mike Tyson turned pro without Cus Damato etc, he would have been the same style of fighter he was from 89 onwards, a face first brawler with a good chin.
Compare that to the "Damato Tyson" of 86-88.

The influence of Damato (and his style) on Tyson is unquestionable

 

some very good points. Are you saying tyson had ATG talent just not an ATG's head? he couldnt think for himself?

9 out of 10 times Tyson’s power alone would bail him out, so he would concentrate on that when he was frustrated. I am not sure he ever had the attention span to focus so if he missed a shot and was tied up a couple of times he wouldn’t be able to process the programmed defence and foot work that would position him for unanswered combinations because he was too frustrated. This was a immature man child in many respects.
The guy was so fast and sharp he wouldn’t be frustrated 9 out of 10 times and looking fantastic but against a problem he wasn’t so great. Douglas always would have been a problem looking as good as he was that night.

 

agreed, Tyson absorbed D’Amato but his concentration span was always going to be a problem eventually. How do we know Tyson could have maintained the 86-88 form? wasn’t the bonecrusher and tillis fights within that period?

 

Tillis, was when Tyson was still green and his first step up.

SMith decided to hug Tyson for 12 rounds, none of which is Tysons fault.
(I dont blame Smith, what would you do if u saw the Berbick fight, and knew you were next in line?)

I dont know how long he could have mainted his 86-88, becaue his life was spiralling out of control. It wasnt just one issue, it was multiple issues. All i do know his, with Kevin Rooney he was 35-0, and post Rooney his record stands 16-6, go figure.

 

On paper carl the truth wiliams and frank bruno were as good as the other title chalengers and tyson KOd both without rooney.

For one year In title fights Tyson was 2-0 (2 byKO) at world level without rooney when he met douglas.

With rooney tyson was 7-0(5) in title defences over 3 years.

 

Carl Williams got caught by a Tyson left hook and went to sleep

Bruno was a bum and not on Tysons level, he should have been gone within 1-2 rounds. But the fight became more competitive than it should have

The record with and without Rooney still stands

 

atsch when jacobs and clayton launched Tysons career they financed the same match maker that was used by brunos people to pad out his learning curve. they used a lot of the same trial horse opponents to nurse tyson along on after they had already been through bruno and most of them lasted longer against Tyson.

 

Was it Johnny Bos ?

 

bos was the agent micky duff was the matchmaker

 

I don't think Jacobs and Cayton used a lot of former Bruno opponents to bring Tyson along though.
I can only think of one ... Mike Jameson.

Still, Tyson fought a load of other tomato cans.

 

As well as mike jameson tyson also fought james tillis, reggie gross and jesse ferguson that bruno also fought. but duff also booked tyson victims donnie long, michael "jack" johnson and conroy nelson for other british fighters.