If Wlad beats Haye, will he cement his place as...

I think we'll have to wait 10 years or so to really see what Wlad's legacy will be. I know my Dad was never convinced that Ali was in the same league as Louis. Look how long it took for us to recognize Holmes as an atg.

And, of course, I'll have to say it. In Eastern Europe, Wlahd's already an atg in people's minds. For some, maybe even the GOAT. Every country is going to promote their own.

I look at the top ten contenders of today (Ring) and I'll have to say it, They don't look that bad up against the top ten contenders on any given one day of any era.
Heavyweight

1. CHAMPION: Wladimir Klitschko
   
   
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   Country: Ukraine
   Record: 55-3-0 (49 KOs)
   Ranking: This Week: C | Last Week: C | Weeks On List: 316
   Titles: THE RING, IBF, WBO
2. Vitali Klitschko
   
   
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   Country: Ukraine
   Record: 42-2-0 (39 KOs)
   Ranking: This Week: 1 | Last Week: 1 | Weeks On List: 140
   Title: WBC
3. David Haye
   
   
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   Country: England
   Record: 25-1-0 (23 KOs)
   Ranking: This Week: 2 | Last Week: 2 | Weeks On List: 117
   Title: WBA
4. Tomasz Adamek
   
   
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   Country: United States
   Record: 44-1-0 (28 KOs)
   Ranking: This Week: 3 | Last Week: 3 | Weeks On List: 60
5. Alexander Povetkin
   
   
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   Country: Russia
   Record: 21-0-0 (15 KOs)
   Ranking: This Week: 4 | Last Week: 4 | Weeks On List: 190
6. Ruslan Chagaev
   
   
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   Country: Germany
   Record: 26-1-1 (17 KOs)
   Ranking: This Week: 5 | Last Week: 5 | Weeks On List: 239
7. Eddie Chambers
   
   
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   Country: USA
   Record: 36-2-0 (18 KOs)
   Ranking: This Week: 6 | Last Week: 6 | Weeks On List: 116
8. Alexander Dimitrenko
   
   
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   Country: Ukraine
   Record: 31-1-0 (21 KOs)
   Ranking: This Week: 7 | Last Week: 7 | Weeks On List: 135
9. Denis Boytsov
   
   
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   Country: Germany
   Record: 27-0-0 (22 KOs)
   Ranking: This Week: 8 | Last Week: 8 | Weeks On List: 104
10. Robert Helenius
    
    
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    Country: Finland
    Record: 15-0 (10 KOs)
    Ranking: This Week: 9 | Last Week: 9 | Weeks On List: 11
11. Chris Arreola
    
    
    Country: USA
    Record: 32-2-0 (28 KOs)

These are the top ten today, June 18, 2011. Don't compare them against the top ten of the entire '70's or the entire '80's. That wouldn't be fair. Pick one day, let's say June 18, 1981, exactly 30 years ago, who were the top ten contenders on that day?

I couldn't get that one day in 1981, but here are the top contenders for the entire year 1981.

Larry Holmes, champ
Mike Weaver
Gerry Cooney
Michael Dokes
Greg Page
Gerrie Coetzee
Trevor Berbick
Leon Spinks
James Tillis
Randall (Tex) Cobb
Renaldo Snipes

So, if you match them up,

Larry Holmes, champ vs Wlad, champ
Mike Weaver vs. Vitali
Gerry Cooney vs. Haye
Michael Dokes vs. Adamek
Greg Page vs. Povetkin
Gerrie Coetzee vs. Chaegev
Trevor Berbick vs. Chambers
Leon Spinks vs Demitrenko
James Tillis vs Boytsov
Randall (Tex) Cobb vs. Helenius
Renaldo Snipes vs Arreola

So, who beats who in 1981 vs. 2011? Well,

Wlad vs. Holmes would be two of my favourite ATG's in a fight. My heart is with Holmes, but my head says Wlad.

Vitali turns Weaver inside out.

Haye vs. Cooney? God I'd love to see this fight. I think Cooney KO's Haye.

Dokes vs. Adamek? I give the nod to Adamek

Page vs. Povetkin? I don't know.

Chaegaev vs. Coetzee I don't know

Chambers beats Berbick

Demitrenko destroys Spinks

James Tillis runs out of gas and Boytsov wins

Helenius vs Tex Cobb? in a slugfest. Flip a coin.

Snipes KO's Arreola

So, that's the way I see it. 2011 contenders don't look bad against the 1981 contenders. But What do I know? It was fun putting this together.

 

Agreed.

I don't see why people are making such a big deal over a potential win over Haye.

Chagaev, Byrd, and Peter are all at least comparable, if not bigger wins.

 

Haye has not even cemented anything at heavyweight. What would beating Haye really prove except that Vlad is bigger?

 

I'd ranked him #15 if he wins. When it's all said and done he might have a good chance at cranking the top 10. It's not that Haye does a lot for Wlad, it's that he's already at the cusp anyway. But when has Wlad beaten a fighter that possessed a good combination of power & speed? Granted, a flawed one, but still. This would be the cherry on top for Wlad. Beating a variety of styles bolsters you legacy.

 

He beats Haye and he's around the 15th mark I reckon.

 

Pretty much there already really. He has something like 17 title defenses when his WBO defenses get factored in too.

I respect Haye's ability more than most and with a convincing win there I'd put him solidly at at least 15.

 

:deal


http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?p=9892925&highlight=chagaev#post9892925

 

We already have a very clear picture of what Wlad can and can't do in the ring. We've scrutinized his strengths and weaknesses ad tedium, now it's time to decide on actual placement as I doubt we're likely to see new dimensions to his boxing this late in the game.

Based on the criterion I've chosen, I have him at 13. Obviously, if he should lose to Haye, the whole thing is turned on its head, and if that should happen, I'll admit to have overestimated his abilities as a fighter.

 

Vlad wasted his talent a long time ago. A paranoia over his chin, has cost him any chance of being considered a fine champion.

Also an inability to put himself across to American and British audiences has hurt him.

Finally, unlike all the other classic eight divisions the best Heavyweight Champions of the World and many of the top contenders had charisma (and/or a manager who gained them an image, that the public brought) that helped sell themselves to a mainstream audience. Nobody has done that for Vlad.

Vitali might sneak a top 25 place (that is debatable), Vlad, no, he should of given the sport a lot more, and thus does not deserve the kudos.

 

If he loses to Haye (by knockout) then it changes nothing in how I view him as a fighter, personally, because I consider Haye Wlad's own type of poison. That's why, also, I would rate this as Wlad's top victory. Even though I consider Haye to be an all-around similar level of heavyweight (very good, not great) to Ibragimov, Chagaev and Byrd (Wlad's top three for me), I do consider this a worse stylistic match-up for him and a win would cement to me that he has become the significantly improved fighter I feel he's become since his last loss.

That said, I think he's arguably anywhere in the 15-25 spot now, depending how you want to rate, which is great considering how long the division has been around. If he beats Haye it really does for his legacy only up the level of dominance of his reign, which helps, but doesn't make the best fighter on his resume any better (unless Haye loses, then goes on to things that should make us think otherwise, against his retirement wishes). My take, anyway.

If we're rating fighters on charisma and that go-getter seek and destroy attitude and popularity and how much they "give to the sport", then, hell, Arturo Gatti is on the level of many, many ATGs! In other words, I don't see the relevance of what you're talking about.

 

If you reads the post properly you see clearly I said Heavyweights are partly rated on charisma. This is because talent wise they are lacking the depth of all the other classic eight, but are the most important division to the mainstream audience. Thus they need skills that other divisions do not require.

That has to be factored in when considering their standing against their peers in the division. As it is a very important part of being potentially considered an excellent heavyweight.

An aspect of the game Vlad failed miserably at...

 

Wlad is already top 15. McCline , Ibragimov , Byrd , Austin and Thompson , maybe even Chagaev were his best wins. Haye will be a lesser opponent than the Monte Barrett Wlad fought. If Wlad loses however , out he goes from the top 15 , but remains top 20 because my list is h2h and not charisma based.

 

I read the post properly, thanks, but I assume this thread is based on our learned opinions on how his career and ability is to be evaluated and then rated against the best ever, from our evaluation of them all as fighters. ...For which Charisma and the like shouldn't mean jackshite, right? :yep

 

If I put him at 15, I have to displace Jeffries.:huh

 

If you go by my personal criteria on evaluating a fighter, which has little to do with fighting, having the same letter for all three initials is really obnoxious (even more so than the pop star one name move) and he shouldn't even make the top 50.