Ali Hypocrite

I worked it out because Uncle Tom comes from the book about the obedient house slave (even though in the actual book, Tom becomes a hero). So the insult has become, as well all know, that you are obedient and submissive to the white society/power. But if Ali was a hero in Africa, then he had gained the respect and admiration of the people who are most entitled to make that judgment on his character, considering they are the people that so called "uncle Toms" are criticized for not being.

I never said Joe Frazier was an uncle tom. What I have said numerous times is that what Ali said was wrong, and that he knows it, and has publicly expressed remorse for saying those things. This debate started when I quoted you comparing the two as being or more or less of an uncle tom than one another.

Your talking about kings and diplomats in African history when you say some of the "biggest" men in Africa. By biggest do you mean loved respected and adored? Or biggest as in being a powerful king. The comparison is way off, because one one hand we are talking about an African American who came from an ancestry of slavery in america, and on the other hand we are talking about corrupt African leaders.


"Some of the biggest men in African history willingly sold their people out for dollars."

Africa is a mighty big continent...

And remember, were not talking about noteriety. Were talking about being loved.


And Duce, the three most written about people on Earth are Jesus Christ, Barack Obama, and Muhammad Ali.
Led Zeppelin were never quite the same in the non western world. Ali's fame doesnt even compare. He was the most famous person in the western world, and he was a muslim, so he was also the most famous in the eastern world. We will probably never see that again for a long time.


Im 21 Unforgiven, what about you?

 

Yes, I was responding to PowerPuncher's claim that "Frazier was an Uncle Tom compared to Ali" .... which is undoubtedly wrong.
Since both of them score '0' on the Uncle Tom scale.

Frazier wasn't any more of an Uncle Tom than Ali. End of.

Michael Jackson was loved and idolised.
People are funny like that.
They love people they've never met because they are influenced by fame and image.

I'm a mere 37.

 

Geez, I feel old now,,,,,,,,,,thanks for bringing up age.

You guys are both youngsters.

Yes, Muhammad Ali's popularity has grown to immense proportions over the years.
But, in the mid 70's it was not what you think it was.
Even in the 60's, it was mild.

 

Sorry for bring up age.
Reznick does carry an outlook that reflects the idealism of youth. That's why I asked.
I've reach the mildly cynical stage, or at least sceptical.

 

MR. UN,,,,,,,,,,,I'm a young,,,,,,,,geez,,,I forgot my age,,,,,,
I can't believe I just said that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,atsch

Well, I did get to see Sonny Liston in 1962,,,,,,,,in person, and for several months too.

You know, as much as we do idolize Muhammad Ali, I still have never
met one person who was ever influenced by him.
And I'm from New York, and spent a hell of alot of time in NYC, Bronx,
Queens, Westchester and etc.

More people loved Willie Mays,,,,,,,,

 

alex,,,,,,voh'chay,

Probably everything you've read about him.
Surly, mean, brute,,,,,then nice, cordial, polite.
Around kids, like me (14), he was a great guy.

In 1962, The Pines Resort, South Fallsburg, NY, where he was training for his fight with
Floyd Patterson (first title fight).
Sonny (we called him Mr. Liston) would always walk into the village in the morning.
Us kids would always be waiting for him at the '5 & 10'.
Just a plain cool guy.
But, stay away from him when he drank.

When Sonny Liston was up here, he was like a magnet, everybody was attracted to this guy.
Sonny was good people, like a regular in the village.
The guy drew 1000 people for his outdoor training sessions, every morning.

When Cassius Clay came up here, it was for publicity only. He came with his entourage and some media types,
and it was like a side-show at a circus carnival.
Cassius Clay did not associate with the the little people, or 'townies'.

 

Jet Magazine Macrh 3, 1966

"WHY'S EVERBODY PICKING ON ME', asks ALI

Heavyweight Boxing Champion, Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay), thinks his Louisville,
Kentucky Draft Board is going overboard in trying to get him into the Army with
their latest action in re-classyfing him 1A, and making him eligible for immediate
drafting.

Ali, who failed 'two' mental tests, was given his new status, supposedly under the
new lowered selective service requirements.

"Why Me", asks Ali
"Why are they so anxious"
"Why are they gunning for me"
"Louisville has thousands of young '1A' men"
"And they have to go into thousands of files to seek me out"

 

Ali was suffering from paranoia/'delusions of grandeur'.

He thought the Draft Board were victimising him.

"Why me ? Go choose someone else" is not the most noble, bravest of protests, IMO.

 

MR. UN,

Yes, not one of very 'noble qualities'

 

I never said Michael Jackson wasnt loved and idolised. The magnitude between both of their fame are just at different levels.

Fame and image are two very different things. I don't like him because of his fame, but I certainly admire his image, accomplishments, and what he is a symbol for. My influence comes form something deeper than just watching some documentaries. I know of a lot of things he has done first hand, so I guess its not just tales from Bert Sugar that my admiration derives from or anything like that.

Remember, no hero is without fault or mistake. And no person is perfect, or anywhere near it.


Yea I'm young, but I have truth on my side. You have 16 years worth of experience on me in this Earth, so your debating skills may be superior, which is fine. All I will say is that Muhammad Ali is a great person, and this is coming from somebody whose dad was one of his closest friends for the last 25 years. I dont know much about how he was behind closed doors when he was 22 years old, but I can imagine, not the most mature...

There must be a connection with old age and maturity, I can just feel it...

 

:huh How did he do this, did he even know what the human condition is?

 

It depends if you think killing a bunch of villagers for a country that treats you as a second class citizen is just or not

I guess its all about perception..


Thats awesome you got to see Liston when you were younger. Lucky! :good

 

There was a lot more going on than just rampaging thru villages and killing people.

Like helping out the starving villagers from the chaotic atmosphere created by
the Viet Cong.
And saving helpless children from the ruthless North Vietnamese, who would ****, torture amd mame the harmless young.

More of Jet Magazine;

Muhammad Ali, is obviously not anxious to receive the $87.90 monthly recruits salary.

Ali argues, "Why be so anxious to take 'me', a man who pays the salaries of at least
2000 soldiers a year."

"I buy a lot of bullets, and pay for 'six' jets after 'two fights' with my taxes."

Complaining, Ali fumes,
"I can't understand, with all the professional baseball players, basketball players and football players - they seek out 'me',
the only 'Heavyweight Champion in the Whole World."