Alex, this article say it all...Ali was a race-baiter any way you look at it.He got away with this as no other fighter in history.He alienated millions of decent Americans like myself and others,who saw his cruelty ,demeaning other fighters,who had mothers and families,and were trying to make a living.Facts are facts. I feel bad that he is suffering from Parkinson's and too many blows to the head from rope-a-dope,taking too many blows from opponents trying to tire them out...But what he done before cannot be excused. Just wrong !
There are thousands of articles which eipict Muhammad Ali in a 'bad light'. But I do believe we do not have to read about the 'happenings',,,,,,we lived it. Great showman, great boxer and a fantastic self-promoter. Attached himself to some issues that needed attention. A good citizen now.
He was taken in and manipulated by a crazy fkd up racist religious cult, that's his biggest hypocrisy, not Vietnam.
Just curious Burt Why the double standard with Ali and Dempsey as it pertains to racism? "Alex, this article say it all...Ali was a race-baiter any way you look at it.He got away with this as no other fighter in history.He alienated millions of decent Americans like myself and others,who saw his cruelty ,demeaning other fighters,who had mothers and families,and were trying to make a living.Facts are facts." As I understand you turn a cheek to Dempsey possibly being a product of his times. But Ali doesn't get that same treatment? I dont blame Dempsey either, it would be silly. But Ali is just as much a product of his times, and if we agree on Dempsey in that regard, I dont see what makes Ali's case so different. I'm curious as to how he alienated you Burt? Was it a personal run-in? Or do you mean that metaphorically with the war, or by his actions in general? It's good to know that you don't like to be alienated because maybe you can see why Ali felt alienated by 80% of his country for not being able to eat a burger at a local restaurant after bringing home the gold for USA.
REZ, I don't think a Young Cassius Clay was the only person in America to feel the affects of racism, or just not being wanted in some locale. Why, for instance was a guy like Sonny Liston, with a criminal-past and labeled thug, more well-respected in some areas. Winning a Gold Medal in an individual sport at the Olympics doesn't neccessarily guarantee you anything, because quicky, can you name the other Gold Medal winners at the 1960 Games,,,,,,,,
Ali said blacks and whites shouldn't mix, at a time when black civil rights leaders were making great strides and efforts to end segregation. Ali made statements that supported the view that whites and blacks mixing and inter-marrying was immoral and unnatural. He even said black men should be killed for going with white women. I don't see how these views were in keeping with the times, they were more behind the times if anything. I don't remember Dempsey ever expressing those types of views, even though they were be more "in context" of his time (the 1910s, 20s, 30s) rather than the age of the civil rights and pro-integration that Ali was living in.
Rez, I was hoping to put an end to this thread already...The past is prologue, and we cannot bring it back. I understand Rez, that your family was acquainted with Ali,and you want to defend his actions.Fine...But the fact was that Ali was CRUEL and vindictive to many of his opponents,spouting off at the mouth, and this CANNOT be denied.It is what it is... You say Ali felt alienated by his government, and this caused him to take out his wrath on his black and white opponents who never HARMED him before. This Rez is garbage. This was Ali's true nature at that time... By 1960 great strides were being made in Civil rights, and I and a VAST majority of Americans who believed fervently in equal justice,had not a snippet to do with Ali, not being abe to "get a hamburger at a counter". But you served your country, because how bad it was for you at the time, things were changing for the better. As the great Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the other forms' of government....what would happen Rez, if everyone decided to not serve in the second world war, or not pay taxes, if they felt the government was not doing right by them.? I'll tell you. It is called anarchy, and Ali or his family would then be a hell of a lot worse off. Tell me Rez what did Dempsey do to his opponents in terms of demeaning them ,calling them cruel names that compared with Ali's tirades ? Please enlighten me.? By all accounts Dempsey who had a MUCH harder beginning in the old western towns, was a modest gentleman, never bragged,took his defeat by Tunney like a man,saying "i forgot to duck ",when his wife asked about his battered face. As a youth he was a hobo forced to hold on to a trains undercarriage for dear life,going to a next town for a fight foir grub to eat. A dangerous practice for a youngster. Well Rez,i hope Ali is content now.Really do, for he gave me my greatest boxing event ,when I saw him and Joe Frazer in 1971 at MSG. A night to remember ! Cheers Rez..,.
See I think the main difference of opinion we have is in regards to the philosophy of American racism. Nobody denies what he said to his opponents. It's all there on youtube for everyone to see. I'm just saying that Ali is a product of his times when were talking about his opinions throughout his career about race. If nobody wanted to go fight for a war that our government initiated, then our government would have need some serious restructure, and to change it's method of reason. Dempsey didn't have to use racial slurs against his opponents to be as much of a product of his time than Ali. Dempsey is white. Two entirely different sides of the spectrum. By Dempsey having passive racism, if there ever was a term, it's pretty much no different than the black panther party, or Muhammad Ali *given the circumstances*. Like I said in my last post, I have no negative perception of Dempsey for this. But I also think of Ali as a product of his times as well. Not just Dempsey. I love your posts Burt. You always bring up great point worth discussing. Thats why I keep responding It's a great discussion/debate we've been having.
Well the entire country started to like Liston as soon as he signed to fight Ali, and became the "proud negro crusher". I guess that's why. And a racist america would rather see a boxer who in their eyes is a thug and a brute, rather than a boxer like Ali who was loud, and liked to brag in the face of white society. It was even worse for the rematch when Ali was an announced muslim. Liston all of a sudden became the American hero. Not because of his civil rights marches. But because they hated the other black guy more than this one.
Yes. Its called black pride. Some people might ave overdone it in a time where people of their color were visibly oppressed everywhere. It was retaliatory to a nation who abused people of his kind. While a group like the Klan were retaliatory to see a black man be free. Your mistaking the term "being a product of his times" as a way to say that Ali had the most popular opinion at the time. But these are two completely different things. Ali WAS a product of his times, because he was forced to make some bad statements about people of his color, REACTING to an oppressive nation of racism. If our government were not oppressive, why would he ever even think about having problems with white people? His viewpoints and comments about racism, all stemmed from growing up 2nd class.
Rez,what do you mean 'Dempsey had passive racism" ? What a man thinks about another man is his OWN DAMNED business.! As long as he doesn't ACT upon his thoughts. Every male wanted Marylin Monroe badly, but we contolled our personal demons,and hurt no one as a result. What Dempsey did or did NOT think, you or I will never know, or should know. Private thoughts are our's alone Rez, as long as we treat our fellow man ,as we would want ourselves to be treated, regardless of race, background or religion...Rez, I believe Dempsey was every bit as nice a man,as your flawed idol ,Ali was. Please let the guy rest in piece.Your a good guy Rez.:goodNow to the Jets-Patriots game....
Jack Dempsey is one of my favorite Americans in the 20th century.. But I agree, I gotta keep an eye on my Bears!!!
This thread is still hanging around,,,,,,,,,,,,,, As a fact,,,,,,the whole country was hoping for a double knock-out at the Lewiston, Maine fight.