Mr. Un,,,,,,,,, Very good points. We do have to give Muhammad Ali alot of credit for taking a stand. Right or wrong, the man did go with his heart. But, I do believe, he never thought things would have played out the way they did.
Hey, thanks for the interesting response, your bring up some good points. But let me try to answer them. I am indeed a yank. And living here, with all the racial stigma, is not the same as reading about it in the book. I was too young to live through the Civil Rights movement, but the after affects are still present today. And I don't think unless you grew up in America you would fully appreciate Ali's bravery just on his individualism stance alone. Imagine me reading about the racial stigmas in the country you live in. Would it be the same as if I lived there and experienced it myself? Ali DID apologize to Frazier in person less than ten years ago. I'll try to find more info on it. It doesn't matter. No matter how much Ali apologizes, Frazier will always be bitter. Not an act I cant sympathize for, but still there is nothing Ali could do about it. Frazier just never understood it, or he never wanted to play that "promotion" game. Ali was always promoting his fights, and I guess Frazier just didn't understand or accept that. Everyone else did.... The Vietcong quote was not "fed" to him. Someone said it in his group, and he really liked it so he repeated it to the news. He made a moral choice to accept that quote when his friend told it to him, and to use it in the news. It wasn't like a black man in a suit told him "Okay you will say they never called you an 'n word' when you go on the news." Very slack ropes in Zaire, as an advantage?!??! Maybe in hindsight, yea. But Angelo Dundee's biggest fear as a trainer was that Ali would fall through those ropes in Zaire, which would have been something like a 10 ft fall. It probably could have killed or paralyzed him had he fallen through, which you could see he almost did many times. Ripped gloves?? In the Cooper fight? That is a myth, that has already been debunked.
Good post. I'll always maintain that the loose ropes in Zaire made little,or no difference to the result.
REZ, So what you're saying is that Joe Frazier was just not smart enough to understand Ali's great promotional ploy. He was the poor dumb black flat-nosed gorilla from Philadelphia, and Ali was the brilliant promotional guru from Louisville, with a 78 IQ.
What he did to Malcolm, till today, is by far his biggest regret, and something he still feels very bad about. He was a 23 year old kid when he made that decision to turn his back on Malcolm. There was also a lot going on in his life at the time. But it's still sad how that turned out. It my worst favorite moment of Ali's story.
I said Frazier didn't understand OR accept it. Either he didn't understand fully to what magnitude financially the importance of promoting a fight was, OR he didnt give a damn. And would rather have his pride than a few more millions. Thats what im saying. "poor dumb black flat-nosed gorilla" are your words. Weird how "black" and "flat-nosed gorilla" have nothing to do with the equation. Sorry you can't have a moment where you embarrass me by exposing some sort of racial ignorance. That only happens to you, remember?
I know its not the same but i know from the reading of books of specific racial incidents that were horrendous and can imagine there is still a lot of racism that goes on today in the USA. I also read that book cant remember what its called i think its part of the USA national curriculum of a white man who dyes himself black and lives in the deep south. Ali calling Frazier a Tom was disgraceful Ali was middle class Frazier has 14 brothers and worked on the fields. Ali saying about Cloverlay Inc being filled with white people........... Well you had Ali involved with Jewish businessman, white trainer, white doctor........ white lawyers etc etc. Fraziers manager Yank Durham and trainer eddie futch. Ali was fed that line the nation of islam guy not elijah muhammed another one coined the vietcong phrase. The press was outside he was like what shud i say and the guy told him to say that. The gorilla, tom, slow, ugly, dumb etc etc etc phrases is hardly promoting the fight like in the first fight all the tickets were sold out ages before the fight and all the Closed circuit locations were sold out so he didnt need to "promote" the fight. Never heard any evidence of muhammed apologising in person ill ask Joe when i meet him in March. But on the 2009 documentary thrilla in manila he said he never apologised in person to him. End of the day he wasnt a nice bloke and i feel he's very overrated in his boxing but thats a different thread entirely.
C'mon, Rez,,,,,,,it was Ali who pushed his nose sideways and spoke as a dumb-person while in his words, imitating Joe Frazier. And didn't he pound on small Gorilla doll. You can't defend Ali on everything, geez,,,,,,,,,,only you know how Joe Frazier felt.
The racial terms still had no relevance. I'm not defending his actions. Neither would he today. I'm just saying I pity Frazier for still letting it have an affect on his life and his peace of mind. You know what peace of mind is? It's when you have parkinsons disease, and someone like Frazier mocks you about how you can't talk anymore.....and you literally do not care. Thats peace of mind.
Ali's trash talk to Frazier was what he did to everything, it was mental warfare, pyschology games, it was supposed to be demeaning, but at the end of the day boxing isn't about being nice to your opponent. Obviously there was the pomotional aspect to it to. Frazier let Ali eat him up way too much, it helped give those 3 great performances, but at the end of the day it was name calling and Frazier was overly sensitive
:good Far worse things have been said in boxing since those days. Oliver McCall saying to Frank Bruno that he would do to him what Nigel Benn did to Gerald Mcclellan.. Now that WAS sick !
Yes,,,,,,,,but Muhammad Ali was supposed to be such a religous man, honor of the faith, minister, a man of peace and wisdom. Also, earlier, didn't he have two wives attending the fight in Zaire? An 18-carat phoney,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I never bought his line.
I think the racism that ali gave frazier was worse than saying you are gunna disable sum1............ End of the day frazier from the farms of beaufort south carolina whilst ali was middle class if anything frazier was representing the propa black folk of the time.
Hmmm, odd transition that we goo about his marriages now. Good Duce, lets air out all the doubts. By the way, does "yes" mean you agree? How do you know what caused turmoil in his relationships? You didn't live in his house. Your not him, and you certainly not any of his wives. You don't know anything near where you should to be able to make a judgement call on his personal relationships. Oh and great point brought up by powerpuncher. It was the most overlooked aspect of the trash talking throughout this entire thread, and that was for mental warfare.