Best Chin?

Well, they say Fitzsimmons was a true power puncher and hit like a Louis or a Dempsey. If that's so, then Jeffries' chin was tested.

 

I'm sure he hit very hard for a man of his size.

 

Perhaps he hit as hard as Joe Louis, that's what I'm saying.
If so, what does that say about Jeffries' chin ?

 

It is not the size of the people your chin is tested against that counts but their effectivness as a puncher. For example you would probably regard Bob Satterfield as a sterner test of sombodys chin than Primo Carnera.

Was Henry Cooper really a better puncher than Bob Fitzsimmons?

Was Marty Marshal?

Was Jimmy Young?

What about Tom Sharkey?

Jeffries chin has to be judged against the fact that he was thrown in with all time punchers albeit small ones at a verry junior stage of his career. The same supermiddleweights and cruiserweights who failled to drop him were putting away other guys his size brutaly.

 

If he truly hit as hard as Joe Louis, then I would'nt hesitate to agree with you that Jeffries' chin should not be questioned.

 

But we cant really say if he did or not, and that's why I dont like making assessments of those early "pre-filmed" fighters.

I can discredit Fitz as a puncher because he's a "super-middle", and therefore discredit Jeffries as "not fully tested", that would be silly. Nor can I credit them, since I dont actually know.

I just dont know whether Fitz hit that hard, or whether Jeffries chin held up against a Joe Louis-level puncher. But I wouldn't say it isn't so, just because I dont know.

People who feel comfortable rating the fighters from those eras seem to have a fairly solid case for crediting the fighters though, using contemporary reports and reputations though.

 

I agree,

When I responded to Janitor, I said " If " . The truth is that I don't know either. For example, I have never seen a man like Sam Langford fight on film, and neither have most people here, but some claim he would beat the **** out of Nikolay Valuev soley based on his reputation. Frankly, I don't like making judgements about fighters I haven't seen, but people seem to do it all the time.

It's sort of like people who live in the UK saying what a great public speaker Henry VIII was, and that his speaches made Gordon Brown look like a fool. How would you know this??

 

I thought you were claiming that Jeffries' chin had NOT been tested as much as later champions. That's how I interpreted your original post (and Icertainly got that from ChrisP's post which you were agreeing with).
I'm guessing janitor thinks it WAS fully tested, enough to be top 3 in heavyweight linear champions.

To be honest, the bare facts of Jeffries' record don't impress me much at all when compared with other heavyweight champions. The fact that he beat old, "small" fighters and fighters attempting comebacks off ridiculous layoffs, I dont see much to be impressed about as far as quality of opposition goes. It's really a stretch for me to imagine they constituted great competition, but as far as punching power goes I dont see why Fitz or whoever else cant have been a murderous puncher and perhaps Jeff's chin really was granite. Those claims I'd consider very minor leaps of faith, whereas much that is claimed about these old-timers I actually consider fantastical leaps of faith.

Like you, I find it easier to discuss stuff that came a couple of decades later and was caught on quality film.

As for Gordon Brown, he looks like a fool regardless of Henry VIII's supposed oratory skills. (The footage backs up this claim.)

 

I'll go with
Heavyweight: Chuvalo.
Lightheavweight: Maxim...For my money. He fought absolutely everyone in his era. I recently saw an old article online from Time Magazine entitled something like "I've got the best bum out there!"...In the article Doc Kearns stated that Maxim had the best chin of any fighter he ever worked with, including Dempsey and Walker!...That's good enough for me.
Middleweight: LaMotta.

 

HW: Jay Leno

 

I dont honestly know whether Fitzsimmons hit as hard as Louis.

I am a bit skeptical myself.

What I am sold on is that Fitz was the best pure puncher in the heavyweight division between John L Sullivan and Sam Langford. Some writers who saw these guys fight qestioned Jeffries power but nobody questioned Fitz's power. Nobody really questioned it untill the people who had seen him started dying off.

The deeper you get into Fitz the more the claims of Fleischer and others for his punching ability start to ring chillingly true.

 

Henry Cooper wasn't in the situation that he hadn't won a single fight in 5 years time. He wasn't 36 or 38 years old, either.

And yes, if Ali retired after the Cooper fight, i'd say he had a weak jaw. But he proved beyond any doubt in the 40 fights years after Cooper that his chin is outstanding.


Marshal caught a young and green Liston. Young knocked a young Foreman down indeed and i think this, combined with the fact that the only puncher (1st career) that landed on him had him down twice and nearly out, makes me question his chin.


I know what you're aiming at (most fighters were knocked down by lesser punchers), and that certainly speaks for Jeffries..... BUT! I find it ridiculous to rank him at the absolute top when he has never faced a 210+lbs puncher. Fitzsimmons was a tiny guy compared to most heavyweights that Louis, Ali, Lewis, Holyfield, Frazier et al had to deal with. On top of that, he was 36 years old.

A good chin? Sure. One of the best of all time? Not tested enough.


Janitor, let me ask you something.

Ike Ibeabuchi was never knocked down in any of his early fights, took every bomb of David Tua (who never looked more impressive before or after) without flinching. To me, based on that alone he has survived a much heavier test than any that Jeffries had. Would you rank him at the absolute top of chins for that? What about Vitali Klitschko ?


No?

Now let's say Ibeabuchi faced Jeff Lacy. But not just any Lacy, but a 36 year old one. Ike didn't get knocked down and won by knockout. After that, he faced Cunningham, a 36 year old version who hadn't won a fight since he was 31. Ibeabuchi didn't get knocked down against him either.
Actually, you can replace Cunningham by Chris Byrd since he could probably come down to cruiser. And of course assume he is 36 years old and hasn't won a fight in 5 years. Of course, we already know that Ike didn't get knocked down by Byrd. He ate him up.

Would he now rank in your top3 best chins of all time?