I'm a jiujitsu guy so I definitely think it's a superior art but only in terms of submissions. Wrestling pwns BJJ in terms of takedowns and controls. I really think fighters should be familiar with both to be complete - or substitute judo for wrestling or be a wrestler and substitute catch wrestling for jiujitsu - but catch wrestling doesn't teach one how to fight off one's back.
Quoted For Truth. Also in the case of Coleman, it's not like he hasn't beaten the brains in of many BJJ fighters, literally in the case of kneeing Allen Goes into brain damage.
I find this out whenever I roll or compete with a guy who has a decent background in wrestling. Kinda pisses me off :yep
well I dont mean to offend, I really do not. its just that I hear the same **** over and over I get irritated. The first person I have ever heard say "wrestling is the best base because the wrestler controls where the fight takes place" was joe rogan. It's only half true. it CAN HELP you control where the fight takes place. bJJ and judo can be used similarly. royce fedor and aoki are not wrestlers and they control where the fight takes place just fine. coleman and koschek are not good wrestlers then? coleman failed to take down cro-cop and koschek failed to take down alves. hell lindland never got the chance to take down belfort. were is the control in these cases? it never existed. Im sure you can see that their are endless examples of wrestlers that were not able to dictate where the fight took place. that statement though, seems to describe one "wrestler" more than any other, Chuck liddell. he didnt use his wrestling unless the opponent tried to turn it into a grappling contest, in most cases. but then I havent seen someone as sucsessfull with using this concept besides liddell, maybe gsp. even matt hughes was less able to dictate the cage as much as liddell, thats saying a lot. I loved how chuck schooled all grapplers: renato babalu, tito ortiz(my favorite by far:good), jeremy horn, kevin randelman, and randy couture(in the 2nd and 3rd fights) how I miss the Iceman of old....
I know you didnt mean to offend anybody I just had to throw it in that Widdow does indeed have a history and wrestling and knows his stuff. We have alot of people who have never trained or competed in certain things and have convinced themselves they are experts by watching videos and reading books. I speak from experience dealing with a good wrestler is pretty darn difficult now I only do grappling tournaments so I can comment much on the MMA but they can dictate alot. Now obviously they cant control everyone, cant takedown everybody and cant sprawl on everyone but they do have an advantage. Im no Marcelo Gracie but ive been doing BJJ for awhile now im my tournaments ive finished 3rd, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd (runner up sucks :yep) and ive been a Bluebelt for about a year but ill tell you that you can stick in a longtime wrestler agianst me on his first night and he will still give me alot of hell.
I am talking about the style as a fighting base. It isn't like a wrestler wins every fight that he is in, just because he is a wrestler. Of course you have to evolve. Silly kid.
Once again... to explain it further. Wrestling, IMO is the best base to have. Simple reasons... 1. Yes, a wrestler generally gets to dictate where the fight takes place. 2. Again, as already stated... it is pretty easy for a wrestler to transition into BJJ (if he actually puts in the work). It is NOT easy for a BJJ guy to transition into wrestling. 3. It is much easier for a wrestler to learn how to cover, jab his way in to close the distance, and get his hands on his opponent than it is for a guy who has been doing nothing but striking all of his life to properly be able to defend a takedown... against a wrestler who has been doing it his entire life. 4. It is easier for a wrestler who has learned striking to keep other fighters guessing on their feet. Never know whether to expect a takedown or a strike. Look at Randy Couture. His threat of a takedown kept him in control on his feet in many fights where he clearly wasn't the better striker. This is also something that really helps GSP in his fight game. People don't know what to defend. Respect his wrestling too much and you get picked apart on your feet... too worried about his striking and you are easy takedown bait... you have to worry about both and it takes away from both aspects of your own game. On the other hand... he doesn't have to worry too much about being taken down himself, unless he his fighting against a great wrestler. 5. Words simply can't describe the amount of control a backround in wrestling can give you in a fight. I think the only way to understand it is to fight a really good wrestler, who can actually fight. Hell, there are a lot of wrestlers out there who otherwise can't fight a lick and get by most of the time on doing nothing but taking down and controlling/smothering their opponents. Of course this doesn't work for all wrestlers. Just like everything else in life, a lot depends on the individual. Some people simply can't stay composed enough in a fight to execute their tactics.
Well Coleman you have a point, although he was getting a bit old. Koscheck you again have a point, but he was outwrestled by GSP, so he was not comparatively the better wrestler. So I guess the better way of saying it would be "being able to outwrestle your opponent allows you to dictacte where the fight takes place."
We've seen many great wrestlers unable to take their opponants down just as we've seen great grapplers unnable to sub then or strikers unable to KO them. Wrestling to me is the best "banker" background, partly because judging tneds to favour it and partly because wrestlers don't have any other outlet for there MA that offers decent money so tend to take the sport more seriously where as many strikers and BJJ guys don't fully commit to it. That said if you look at the real greats of the sport I think its notable that they tend not to be wrestlers, not that many wrestlers havent been very sucessful but even guys like Randy and Hendo havent truely dominated. Partly because wrestling lacks finishing ability and defence for other fighters finish abilties IMHO and partly because wrestlers tend to have no other MA expereince. You look at alot of the brazilian big names espeically and they were cross training for years before switching to MMA, the Nogs were boxing aswell as training BJJ, Shogun, Wanderlei, Anderson etc were mixing up BJJ with MT while Machida was mixing Karate with sumo and BJJ. I think alot if of thats down to the difference in training enviroments, if your learning wrestling in the US your almost definately doing so at school and theres no other MA on offer. If your learning BJJ, MT, Karate etc though you actually need to go out and find a private dojo and the kind of person that does that is more likely to also seek out other dojos from different arts or indeed a MMA focused camp well before they actually think o switching to MMA. Getting that grounding early in life is a massive positive IMHO, cross training is all well and good but a 25 year old talking up MT for the first time is never likely to be as sucessful as an 18 year old.
I was reffering to the koschek alves fight where koschek was being outstruk and repeatedly tried to get the fight to the ground but alves defended and easily won a decision.