Floyd Patterson, Enigma

Hi Red! So grateful you and fam survived Irma!
I agree with the JQ quinella and the Ellis fight (tho, once again, our hero's passivity perhaps cost him in those s c r a p s)
That would have made him 57-6-0. With four losses to Ali-Liston, a Maxim loss, and Ingo 1.
P I s s on the china chin nonsense! Never out in a puddle (Lennox Lewis anyone?) Always fighting back in the losses, always rising in losses. How ANY classic boxing fan's attempt to deride his legacy in any way is beyond me!
That left hook and ATG combinations ALONE cement his HOF status.
RIP great warrior; RIP great kind man!!!!

 

Just my opinion, but this is how I scored the Patterson-Quarry fights.

Here is the Patterson-Quarry fights of '67. I scored it on the California system which is 1 point for the winner of a round (an additional point for a knockdown), no points for even rounds.

Patterson-Quarry I

Round 1: Even-no points
Round 2: Quarry (2 knockdowns) 3 points
Round 3: Patterson
Round 4: Patterson
Round 5: Patterson
Round 6: Even
Round 7: Patterson (1 knockdown) 2 points
Round 8: Patterson
Round 9: Quarry
Round 10: Quarry

Patterson 6-5

Patterson-Quarry II

Round 1: Patterson
Round 2: Quarry (1 knockdown) 2 points
Round 3: Quarry
Round 4: Quarry (1 knockdown) 2 points
Round 5: Even
Round 6: Quarry
Round 7: Even
Round 8: Patterson
Round 9: Patterson
Round 10: Patterson
Round 11: Quarry
Round 12: Patterson

Quarry 7-5

 

And not to be forgotten, most significantly, Floyd was basically a cruiserweight fighting those much bigger men that he lost to. I can't say enough about my boxing hero...as he is yours too jowcol...FP's significance goes beyond mere boxing accomplishments...and I don't think I can name may more greats who I hold in high esteem that I think the same way about.
Thank you so much @jowcol...I survived Irma in the same way Joey Maxim survived SRR, if you know what I mean.

 

scartissue, we're of one accord regarding bout #1, ....but I respect you greatly as a knowledgeable poster...and if that's way you saw bout #2, then I respect that too.

 

No. D'Amato was genuinely trying to avoid having to cow tow to the mob and in his naivete he went to Fat Tony Salerno, who was from the same neighborhood as Cus. Cus appealed to Salerno to keep Carbo off his back and didnt fully understand the ramications of his actions. There are no friends with the mob and everything is business. Cus didnt realize he was circumventing a finger of organized crime and going straight to the head. When it was too late Salerno demanded his cut of Patterson and to D'Amatos credit he insulated Patterson from his mistake and paid Salerno's percentage out of his own earnings meaning Cus made almost nothing off the championship. The Johannson thing was done at the influence of the mob and when Patterson found out that Cus had stupidly involved himself with the mob in order to not do business with the mob he misread the situation and fired Cus. To Patterson Cus insulating him became Cus lying to him. Its sad actually. And because this was discovered in the way it was discovered people have since second guessed Cus' motivations when there were very few managers as honest and loyal as Cus in the history of the sport. Thats why I get a little bit ticked off when I read someone casually glance at a record book and draw all of these numbskulled conclusions. Cus got it from both ends when he was fighting a crusade to clean up the sport and protect fans and fighters and became the ultimate victim in just about every way you can imagine. Some will jump on what I just wrote and say "well, he was no angel, he went to the mob for help" but again, without digging into how this all went down and framing it within the context of the times thats, like claiming he was protecting Patterson because he didnt believe him is an incredibly obtuse oversimplification of a very complex time and situation in boxing.

 

I thought he beat Maxim btw.

My opinion of Floyd is that he was probably the greatest LHW who ever lived. He had to work to physically get into the HW division. Had he stayed at LHW, and I think he could have, he would have dominated that division for over a decade. But the money is at HW...

 

This content is protected

 

I do believe Floyd Patterson was completely blameless in all of this though.
Patterson fought whoever D'Amato told him to fight, and apparently fought Liston against D'Amato's wishes because the public demanded it.
Patterson was a very decent man and an honorable one, without question.

 

I fixed your post for you. You vould have limited it to this one sentence and yourself some trouble.

 

This content is protected

 

This content is protected

 

Greetings scartissue! I respect your posts as well!
Was wondering how you scored the Ellis-Patterson WBA title s c r a p?
Here's my takeI've probably watched the darned thing 40 times)
Valen scored it 9-6 Ellis.
IMO Ellis won rounds 1,3, & 15.
Patterson won rounds 4,6,13,14.
That would leave Valen scoring rounds 2,5,7,8,9,10,11,12 6-2 Ellis?
With repeated viewings I just can't see that!
Caveats:
Cosell, Milton Gross, & Mel Derslag ALL scored the second round for Patterson.
In the 15th Jimmy hit (I think) a body shot that sort of knocked the wind out of Floyd and proceeded to go on the attack for the next 30 seconds not landing anything cleanly. The last minute had both of them tired and landing shots when they could. Not to mention, for roughly the first half of the last round, Floyd was knocking Ellis all over the ring!
That 14th round uppercut from Floyd, IMO, clearly dropped Jimmy. Valen called it a 'slip'; if that's the case why did Jimmy rise and go to a neutral corner awaiting his 8 count? And any referee would have signaled a slip immediately which Valen didn't.
Lastly (I used to use this pic as my screensaver) there's a picture of both men after the decision: Floyd, unmarked, with a bemused look on his face. Jimmy? Both eyes closing, with slits over both eyes with a broken nose. I'll respect anyone's opinion and, as I'd said, Floyd's passivity may have cost him in all three fights but make your own call here. At the ABSOLUTE LEAST, giving Jimmy the benefit of the doubt, the fight could have been called a draw.
Patterson, the first 3-time 'HW Champion' much more impressive than Ali's s c r a p s against a green Leon Spinks.
My $0.02

 

@jowcol, I'll go to my grave believing that Floyd decked Jimmy in the 14th and deserved the decision, or as you said, at the very least, a draw....there, add another $0.02 to the pot.

 

patterson was not launched onto the heavyweight scene UNTIL Rocky announced his retirement. Until then Floyd was a light heavy who like the rest of the light heavyweight division of that era took one or two heavyweight fights. I think before Rocky announced his retirement Archie Mcbride was about the only heavyweight Floyd had met until that point. Floyd was not in the heavyweight rankings. He was #1 contender to Archie Moores light heavyweight title.

I don't think you are aware of the timeline. Patterson beat the outstanding heavyweight contender Jackson. Nobody but Archie Moore was rated any higher than Jackson was at heavyweight when Patterson beat him. Floyd as #1 contender at LIGHT-Heavyweight was able to leap above the entire heavyweight contenders to land a fight with the #1 HW contender. He then beat Moore in an upset. That's not really being protected. Before the casino era champions were restricted to the outdoor season in ball parks. It was not financially viable to defend a title as many times indoors. It was something to do with the high tax rate. Champions tended to fight as early as the ballparks could be used.

As champion Floyds first defence was against #1 contender Jackson in a rematch. Nothing wrong with that. Floyd then took Radmacher as a bonus fight weeks later. It should not count as a defence. Next he fought #3 contender Roy Harris. Nothing wrong with that either. The only reason he did not pick #1 or #2 contenders that time was because #1 and #2 drew with each other in an eliminatior. Rather than wait for a rematch Floyd took #3 Harris. Next, having already signed to meet the winner of the Machen and Ingo Johansson fight Floyd took #5 Brian London as a warm up just weeks ahead of his showdown with ingo who was #1 contender. You could argue Henry Cooper should have got Londons shot. But Nothing wrong with Harris or Jackson. There is no protection here or any acceptable window for better challengers than what were available. Pastrano? Cooper? Erskine?

Ingo was ahead of Liston at all times. I really don't see how anyone was ducked. Machen blew two eliminations and Foley lost to Cooper. After the rematch clauses kept Floyd in a trilogy with Ingo Sonny was his #1. So Floyd fought Sonny. Both Sonny and Floyd fought on the same card as warm up ahead of their showdown. Nothing wrong with that.

He did. Floyd beat Cooper and Machen then Bonavena.

Floyd was a great fighter. I think if people still insist Charles was a light heavyweight when Charles was rated as a light heavyweight for a similar amount as time as Floyd was then I believe both would have been great LH champions.

 

This is a great post. I would only add that in addition to Folley and Machen turning out a tepid draw that inspired nobody, allowing Floyd to defend against the popular (and white) Roy Harris, both Machen and Folley were controlled by Carbo fronted managers and that, more than fear, is why Cus steered Patterson away from them. Again, people can Monday morning quarterback and second guess Cus' motivations all they want while looking at the situation completely out of context and through a fish-eye lense but the fact remains that Cus did everything he could to minimize the Mafia's influence on Patterson. That was his major motivation. Anyone who wants to pretend that Cus was mobbed up like Felix Bocchichio or Blinky Palermo needs to go no further than the fact that Cus slept with his bed barricading his door and a shotgun in his lap. Guys who are playing ball with mob don't have to do that. I guarantee you Bocchichio and Palermo didn't. The mobs tentacles were so pervasive in the sport that yes at times you would cross them and likely in some way shape or form you would be doing business with them or for them whether it was directly or through a proxy. But this didn't mean you were TRYING to further their interests or protected by them. You could not get anywhere in boxing without having to deal with them in some way. They had the championships tied up, through the IBC they had all of the major venues and TV dates tied up and through them everything flowed. There were only a handful of people like Cus, LaMotta, etc who spent the greater portion of their careers standing up to them and in basically every instance of those crusaders you can find an instance in their past where they were FORCED to play ball with the mob. But you have to draw a distinction between those who fought back and did everything they could to resist until they hit a complete brick wall (or a lead pipe) and those guys who willingly GLEEFULLY went along with the mob for personal gain.