Irish Boxing

slapbangwhallop · Oct 3, 2009

Oktay Urkal v Eamonn Magee - anyone got this?

Big Ears - PM me yer new address for the Kelly v Malusrottu fight DVD.

nutter · Oct 3, 2009

Bernard Dunne on the Late Late Show

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1056805

BamBam · Oct 3, 2009

Alright gentlemen. Here's a piece I wrote for Paddy's favourite website about Dunne. It's a tad bit long and a wee bit scrappy since I haven't written anything in ages. Couple of typos and all but you get the general idea.

Don't think you are allowed post links to that site here so I'll copy and paste. If you can work out what site its on its easier to read though!

BamBam said: ↑

What’s next? That has been an oft asked question in relation to the deposed champion in the short pace of time since the O2 Arena witnessed Poonsawat Kratingdaenggym’s clinical and ferocious 3rd round TKO victory over Bernard Dunne last weekend. Despite much conjecture and idle talk in the media in recent days as to what the next move should be, it is a question that while never appearing straightforward in the first place, may prove perplexing in the extreme.
Just a few short days after having his WBA Super Bantamweight championship emphatically wrested from his grasp Bernard Dunne was back to face the Irish public as he announced Ireland will be the European Capital of Sport in 2010. Dunne showed his class and grounded nature in being willing to keep an engagement that was surely made in the hope of having a grinning Irish world champion wielding a belt for as a photo opportunity. However, the Dunne that arrived at the engagement was, while doing his best to remain his affable self, in a much more sombre mood.
When asked about his plans for the future Dunne asserted that he would not even think about whether or not he would box on for a couple of months. The only thing on his mind for the minute, he asserted, was the family holiday he had planned. However, his answer did betray the fact that he has at least, even if it is subconsciously, contemplated a scenario where he will not box again.
In the moments after the fight, when he was interviewed mid-ring, the battered and bruised Dunne admitted it would take him a long time to get over this particular defeat. He has been rebuilt once before after another early TKO loss at the hands of Spaniard Kiko Martinez. While on the surface both these defeats appear comparable, in that they were spectacular early stoppage losses, unfortunately the similarities end there.
When Dunne was felled by Martinez at the old Point Depot it was a shock defeat. The crude Spaniard offered little outside of decent punch power and wide sweeping hooks. It was Dunne’s complacency that led him headlong into the first right hook that floored him that night and led to his 89 second stoppage defeat. The Dubliner was badly buzzed and staggered and failed to cover up as he elected to trade with Martinez, and that is what ensured an early night. In the moments after the fight the disappointment was plain to see as Dunne was clearly as taken aback as many of his loyal fans in attendance. He was not hurt physically but his pride had taken a severe beating.
Jump forward to September 09 and that very same line has been trotted out by many in the boxing media who really should know better. It was not just Dunne’s pride that took a beating last weekend, it was his mind and body as well as his reputation.
It is that loss of reputation that may well be the biggest factor in any plans Dunne has for a comeback. A win against his Thai foe would have opened up a world of opportunity in the USA as well as ensuring a seven figure showdown with former Super Bantamweight supremo Israel Vasquez in the near future. While it’s true that Dunne has made a very good living from his trade, million dollar paydays are not to be sniffed at. An attempt to force his way back into elite company in search of what would still be a well earned money spinner seems like a dangerous line to tread nonetheless.
The truth is that Dunne, despite being one win away from the bright lights and Promised Land of mainstream US boxing, was a million miles away from getting there. His epic comeback victory over Ricardo Cordoba seemed to have been a watershed fight in his career. The gruelling strength and conditioning work he had gone through with Mike McGurn, allied with his sheer heart, grit and will to win, had seen the Neilstown man come back from the brink to produce an spectacular 11th round TKO stoppage while miles behind on all three judges scorecards. Yet even in the moment of his greatest victory the warning signs were there.
Hindsight is, of course, twenty-twenty vision but in times such as these it is imperative for Dunne to be analytical and self critical as possible when weighing up his options. Even in allowing for the Panamanian’s genuine class and quality, Dunne did not box particularly fluidly against Cordoba. Dunne’s power, whilst nowhere near as lacking as some would have you believe, has never been one of the main weapons in his arsenal. His skill on the outside and ring control had been the main elements in his rise through the ranks but he got drawn in against Cordoba far too easily.
Early success almost turned to crushing defeat in the 5th round when Cordoba floored Dunne twice after the Dubliner got caught up fighting at close range. Dunne showed he had learned something at least from the Martinez defeat, as he clung on and rode out the storm. The comeback from there on in was superb and showed all of his heart and will as well as physical strength and stamina to will him forward to victory. However, if we take a little look back, you see that these are not traits, as admirable as they were on the night, that Dunne should have been reliant on for his victory.
It would be easy to read the above and take it as being derogatory to Dunne about the finest hour of his career. That is not the intention by any stretch of the imagination. It is merely part of the path which led to his defeat last Saturday night. The fact is that Dunne got sucked into scrapping far too easily when he should have been boxing. He came through on the night but surely his trainer Harry Hawkins would have made it abundantly clear that performances such as the one he had just produced were only a regular occurrence in Rocky movies and not to be expected on a fight to fight basis.
And when the WBA announced that Dunne’s first defence would be a mandatory against the teak tough Poonsawat it is hard to envisage any other scenario than Hawkins, Dunne and the rest of their team drafting a plan of attack that involved staying out of range against the power punching Thai. The rough blueprint should have been somewhere in the archives anyway. In Poonsawat they were faced with, in broad terms, a world class version of Kiko Martinez. The Thai is of a similar stature and height as well as bullish come forward style albeit on a much, much higher level.
This time Dunne would be better prepared. The sting of the Martinez loss after failing to follow the game plan laid out by his trainer could not have been diminished over the course of time, as questions about his defeat to the Spaniard had been far more frequent than inquiries about his twenty-seven victories until he toppled Cordoba for the WBA crown. His training regime had also been changed as Mike McGurn moulded Dunne into a more lean and durable figure. The extra experience and tougher physical makeup would be key in overcoming his next obstacle.
Theory is one thing but execution is another. Dunne managed to stick and move well for the first round and clearly banked the opener in front of a packed O2. He also managed to control most of the second round but was, on a couple of occasions, drawn in by Poonsawat as the challenger relentlessly endeavoured to cut off the ring. In the third Dunne lost his patience. In what was, in all likelihood, an effort to get the Thai to respect his power and earn a bit of breathing space and get off the back foot, Dunne elected to stand and trade centre ring. From then on the writing was on the wall. The fact that the first left hook that dropped Dunne was a peach was unsurprising. World class fighters will deliver world class shots given the opportunity. In fact, Dunne had cannoned a couple of lovely shots of his own off the temple of his foe. The difference was that while his shots were met with an unblinking indifference the shots that came back had a much greater effect on the Irishman.
For all the talk of Dunne being suspect around the chin, and there is no doubt it is a major weakness, his fighter’s heart cannot be questioned. Getting him down is one thing, keeping him down quite another. It would not be stretching credibility to suggest that the punch that led to the first knockdown would have resulted in the full count for the vast majority of the Super Bantamweights in the world. Nonetheless, Dunne got up and came back for seconds and Poonsawat duly obliged by sending him back to the canvas again. Once more, willed on by his hometown crowd, Dunne rose to his feet but the end was nigh. The third knockdown, an automatic TKO, came at 2:57 in the round, but still the Dubliner was trying to regain his feet to box on.
It was a sad end to the short reign of Dunne who, while harshly viewed as arrogant by the few, has become loved by the Irish public for his exploits in the ring and by the Irish boxing fraternity and fan base for popularising the pro-game in Ireland once more.
To be completely analytical about it, though, it was almost inevitable.
The failure to stick to a pre-ordained plan is crucial. Dunne’s lack of raw power and lightness around the whiskers meant he had to stay outside and execute from range. Using his skill to negate the will of his opponent was key. Of course a fighter has to adapt to what is going on during the course of the fight, but Dunne strayed from his chosen path far too easily, far too early and with little reason. At title level, and world level in particular, a fighter’s temperament is just as key as any of his physical traits or boxing ability.

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pathmanc1986 · Oct 3, 2009

slapbangwhallop said: ↑

Barrett v Fury for an Irish title OR cut down to cruiseweight and get active
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getting down to cruiser is his only viable option imo

hes not old and i think could make some noise on the domestic euro cruiser scene and then who knows, one decent win and he could be offered an opp to make a bit of money

hes got good skills, someone like john breen could cut him to cruiser in the proper way i think

BamBam · Oct 3, 2009

Ii

bambam said: ↑

dunne is, perhaps, an infighting brawler trapped in a slick outside fighter’s body. He is far too willing to go to war when he knows he shouldn’t, when he doesn’t have to and when the odds are firmly stacked against him. His opponents do not want him to stay outside and box they want him to march into range and trade. This willingness to feed opposition strengths for the sake of a little machismo may well be what dunne regrets most when he looks back whenever he finally chooses to hang up his gloves.
While all of that is what has happened already, it merely leads us once more to that big question. “what next?”

the first and most obvious option, according to many, is a move up to featherweight. Dunne started his career under the tutelage of freddie roach, fighting at featherweight in the usa. He blasted out an assortment of more than a half dozen nobodies early on. And while that is of course standard for any bright young prospect, it is certainly no indicator of what dunne may do if he moves up to featherweight now five years since he left the states.
Even still his record at featherweight was not flawless. He suffered a flash knockdown en-route to a points victory over the modestly talented aljeandro cruz while still in the states. After that yuri voronin, a tough ebu level stalwart, had him reeling for the best part of two minutes in the final round of their clash in 2005. Again, it was willingness to trade inside needlessly that led to him being caught. He held a five point lead going into the final round and just needed to stay at bay to secure the victory, but the fighter in him got sucked in.
The extra 4 lbs dunne would gain is unlikely to be the panacea that many observers have suggested. It is true dunne has always looked tight at the weight and he may well gain extra strength and punch power up at featherweight. However, naturally, he’d be facing off against bigger opponents who, needless to say, for the most part, will hit harder. The route back at any level is also perilous amongst the featherweights. At ebu level you have the likes of derry matthews, john simpson, paul appleby, paul truscott and martin lindsay, as well as former dunne sparring partner alberto servidei, the returning michael hunter, and that’s before you get to current champion oleg yefimovich. Not exactly the softest bunch of fighters amidst which to make a comeback.
At world level things are, of course, even more dangerous. The unbeaten wba champion chris john is probably top dog in the division at the moment. The ibf incumbent, cristobal cruz, touted as a dunne opponent not so long ago, is in the form of his life, while wbo champion steve leuvano is slick but unspectacular and not to be taken lightly. Perhaps the weak link in the division will be unheralded dominican, elio rojas, he just recently deposed takahiro aoh as wbc champion.
Throw in fighters on the fringe such as yuri gamboa, billy dib, jorge solis, choi tseveenpurev, rocky juarez and daniel ponce de leon. As well as the prospect of israel vasquez, rafael marquez, celestino caballero and juan manuel lopez all moving up in the near future and the featherweight division looks to be a minefield for any fighter. Never mind a fighter looking to feel his way back into title contention after a heavy loss that will have taken its toll mentally as well as physically.
Unless dunne simply cannot make the 122 lb super bantamweight limit anymore then logic would side against him moving up to featherweight. Why? Simply put there are too many trap doors to dodge at the weight. Dunne has already fallen back to the square one in the game of fistic snakes and ladders once after the martinez loss. He now finds himself needing to climb again but another loss and third trip down the slippery slope is likely to prove terminal for his career. Featherweight looks to pose far more danger for team dunne than staying in his current division.
The reasons for this are quite simple. Dunne is unlikely to fight again until the spring by which stage the moves up to featherweight for juanma, caballero, vasquez and marquez are all likely to be completed clearing out the division somewhat. Steve molitor is likely to re-inherit the ibf strap that caballero relieved him of almost a year ago.
Antonio escalante looks the best of the rest in the wbo rankings, and would be as good a guess as any to pick up the vacant strap if and when juan manuel lopez makes his move up in weight. Escalante and molitor are good technicians and, while certainly not feather fisted, they are hardly the heaviest of punchers.
Meanwhile, the heir apparent to the division, poonsawat may well find that he is short on takers for unification fights. With the current brand of alphabet soup, most fighters lose their ranking with other organizations once they pick up a belt in any given division. That would mean any ibf, wbo or wbc champion would be unlikely to be forced into a mandatory defence against the thai powerhouse. It would be hard to imagine many fighters who would be queuing up to take him on as a voluntary.
The two belts not yet addressed are the ebu and wbc but the picture will be a lot clearer by the time, if he chooses to box on, dunne schedules his next fight. Current ebu champion, rendall munroe, will face off against simone maludrottu for the european crown in november. The fight will also act as an eliminator for the wbc title currently held by japans toshiaki nishioka.
This is where a number of permutations and possibilities open up for dunne. If munroe topples maludrottu and vacates, dunne could find himself in line for a crack at the vacant title no later than the end of next year. If munroe wins, he does not vacate, but then comes a-cropper in his world title bid…a much anticipated ireland-england showdown for the ebu title is very much on the cards. If munroe was to beat maludrottu and go on to claim world honours he would automatically have to vacate his ebu title once more leaving the door open for dunne.
Simply putting maludrottu in all the same scenarios offers pretty much the same effect. The one difference is that a dunne-maludrottu showdown for the ebu title may not prove quite the money spinner that the munroe clash would. Nevertheless, any permutation of those possibilities is a feasible way for dunne to get his foot back in the door. It would pretty much require him to be ready to take on maludrottu or munroe sometime around the end of next year, but, again that is not too far fetched an idea.
There are, of course, many intangibles and boxing is a sport that has never been known for its predictability. However, all team dunne can do is try and judge the landscape of the divisions as best they can. The aforementioned ebu super bantamweight route would, upon some reflection, and in this writer’s opinion, appear to be the path of least resistance for a dunne comeback.
A couple of tune ups at european level while he lets the division take shape around him could see the irishman, barring any hiccups of course, set to fight for the european title by the end of next year. A “w” in there would propel him back into contention for world honours. Although if and when dunne gets to that level again he may well find molitor, nishioka and escalante holding titles, or if not those fighters specifically then fighters of their ilk. Not the heavy fisted brutes of the breed of vasquez, marquez, caballero and juanma. Dunne would be back at the top level and well in with a shout again.
Of course it is more than likely poonsawat will still be holding court with the wba title and he will have to be avoided. Nonetheless, the above is a plan of attack that could guide dunne back to the top without taking any wild risks in what will surely be his last time around the pugilistic block.
Of course many things may change over the course of the next year and this plan of attack may have to be modified but it is still not too hard to envisage things panning out not too far away from what has been outlined. The biggest supposition of all is the clearout of the premier super bantamweights in a move up to featherweight. The likelihood is that if a couple go, they will all go and chase the big money, high profile fights at the higher weight.
So there it is, quite simply, a plan. There has been little attempt to find a route or estimate what the best road back would be for bernard dunne. All that has been offered is the general statement that if he boxes on, a move up to featherweight would be good for him and that generally he should try and continue operating in or around the fringes of world class.
I’ll go the opposite way on this one. First and foremost he should fight on. Disheartening as his loss to poonsawat was and is there are still options available to him that do not involve a kamikaze dive headlong into world class featherweight opponents as he chases the big time, like a down and out gambler chases his debts. He should stick with super bantamweight, come back via the ebu route and, all things going to plan, make his final assault on world honours sometime in the summer of 2011.
Even for that plan to come to fruition there will have to be a lot of blood, sweat, and tears shed between now and then, as well as a need for fortune to favour him as the rest of the division develops. Dunne has shown his heart and burning desire, though, and there is no doubt he is capable of rising from the ashes once more if properly managed.
Whatever the outcome, the next decision he makes will surely be the most difficult of his boxing life. It can only be hoped that team dunne will think long and hard and are honest in their evaluation of where they are and where they can go.
Only then will the correct decision be made… and that burning question, “what next?” be answered.

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irishhitman · Oct 3, 2009

thanks for that bam....great article ...you should get it printed in the article section of esb

Ectoplasm · Oct 3, 2009

Ticketmaster say Andy Lee is fighting in UL on November 14th:

http://www.ticketmaster.ie/Yan-Jing-Fight-Night-Andy-Lee-tickets/artist/1011559

gasman · Oct 3, 2009

I just watched the Dunne interview he did on the Late Late Show last night. He gave a very emotional interview, and spoke about not being able to sleep since the fight. I hope he gets over it as he did us all proud to win a title in the first place and he lost a top guy.

nutter · Oct 3, 2009

Ectoplasm said: ↑

Ticketmaster say Andy Lee is fighting in UL on November 14th:

http://www.ticketmaster.ie/Yan-Jing-Fight-Night-Andy-Lee-tickets/artist/1011559
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Good news:happy:happy:happy:happy:happy

nutter · Oct 3, 2009

Sinky Says
01 October 2009 - By Neil Sinclair Its been a rough number of weeks for Irish boxing.
I will never forget John Breen phoning me a couple of weeks ago to tell me that Darren Sutherland had passed away. It brought me back to early in my career when I moved to London when I was training in Romford. After the novelty wore off, I started to get lonely.
Im not sure of the ins and outs of what happened to Darren, but Im sure he felt some of that as well. I can empathise with anyone in that situation. Its not easy and its a very sad time for everyone involved.
Bernard Dunne was conscious of that as well he said that before the fight against Kratingdaenggym. He was hoping to give everyone a bit of joy. But the guy he fought is a cracking fighter. Bernard has come back before and can come back again.
There is dented pride to deal with. I was never at the very highest level Bernard was so I always felt I was able to come back without too much pressure. He has to endure a bigger fall and it will be harder to get back on track.
But winning a world title is my dream its every boxers dream - and what he has already done is great.
--
It is disappointing there are two bills are on on November 6. Also Mike Tyson is in Belfast that night. I would love to see Paul McCloskey crowned European Champion in Magherafelt, but obviously Ill be fighting that night in Belfast.
Because of this, John Breen will be in Magherafelt and Eamonn Magee will be in Belfast. Ill be in good hands with Eamonn obviously, and I know what to do myself anyway. Besides, John will be preparing me in the gym, where any fight is always won and lost.
--
There was a time that no matter who was fighting the crowds werent turning out, but that has changed. Its looking like there will be very good crowds at both events. Its unfortunate that they are on the same night but it cant be helped.
However, it bodes well for the future that in a small place like this that we are having two major title fights on the same night, and that they are both selling.

mossy141 · Oct 3, 2009

Ectoplasm said: ↑

Ticketmaster say Andy Lee is fighting in UL on November 14th:

http://www.ticketmaster.ie/Yan-Jing-Fight-Night-Andy-Lee-tickets/artist/1011559
Click to expand...

good news but he will prob be stuck in with some bum from eastern europe ..lee needs to sign a contract with a big us promoter like arum or someone imo

PatrickP · Oct 3, 2009

In reference to your article BamBam, while I agree with some of it, the point about Dunne getting dragged into a brawl too easily against Cordoba is not a valid argument. The plan was for Dunne to get in close and pressure Cordoba because he knew he could hurt him and wear him down that way. If he hadn't went toe to toe with Cordoba he would have lost that fight by a very wide UD. His tactics against Cordoba were spot on in fact.

Aswell as that you say Dunne was impatient against Poonsawat, I don't agree, Dunne said himself that Poonsawat was just too strong, he wasn't going to make a dent in him fighting of the back foot for 12 rounds of Poonsawat's constant come forward pressure. He had to stand and fight at some stage, that stage came in the third when Poonsawat started to walk through Dunne's punches. If it was possible for Dunne to box and move, he would have but it wasn't an option for him. The ko was inevitable so it was better it came early rather than after Dunne took more rounds of punishment.

adamburke83 · Oct 3, 2009

Esham Pickering just got KO'D in the ukraine for the EBU feather-weight title so roll on Pajo Hyland to have a crack next....

irishhitman · Oct 3, 2009

adamburke83 said: ↑

Esham Pickering just got KO'D in the ukraine for the EBU feather-weight title so roll on Pajo Hyland to have a crack next....
Click to expand...

is that likely to happen

adamburke83 · Oct 3, 2009

irishhitman said: ↑

is that likely to happen
Click to expand...

Hopefully within the next 6 months,

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