Marciano vs Frazier

marciano came at the right time when the division had old past it guys and great light heavies. light heavies were the best contenders. no wonder patterson could smash moore cuz he wasn't even a real heavyweight. walcott wouldn't be top 5 in the 70s - late bloomer LOL any excuse - maybe bruno was a late bloomer cuz he won the title late haha BS. liston, frazier, ali, foreman would destroy him and charles. they'd end up like bob foster v ali or frazier. bonavena was more durable - stopped only once plus he could bang. actually these match ups are more on a level field - walcott v bonavena, ellis v charles, quarry v moore.

 

Patterson's best performance was against Ingo in their 2nd bout.

When Louis fought Walcott he wasn't the same as he was against Max Baer or Max Schmeling. He was out of boxing for 4 years when he cameback in 1946.

Cockell took much more of a beating when he was stopped by Jimmy Slade in December of 1951.

Jimmy Slade's short hooks punched down Cockell's guard from the start and made way for a left hook to the chin in the 1st. Cockell took a count of 6. A short right floored Cockell for a count of 7. Cockell rallied in the 2nd, but in the 3rd he was down again from a left hook. He took an 8 count. In the 4th, two-fisted attacks from Slade had Cockell on the ropes, he dropped to his knees but wasn't counted. A right and a left hook to the chin dropped him again,now for a count of 6. Slade was hammering away, Cockell went down on his knees again, rose and was met by more blows before the referee stopped it.

Slade was 21-4-3 with 5 knockouts at the time. He would finish with a record of 37-23-4 record with 11 KO's.

By the way, here's Rocky's Fight Attendance & Ring Earnings in Championship Bouts. You will see that the least amount of money he made when defending his title was against Cockell and it was the least attended too:

...Date.........................Opponent.......... Attendance......Receipts....
Sept. 23, 1952....Jersey Joe Walcott.....40,379.........$504,645
May 15, 1953...........Walcott..................16,034.... .....$331,795
Sept. 24, 1953..........LaStarza..................44,562.... .....$435,817
June 17, 1954.......Ezzard Charles............47,505.........$543,092
Sept. 17, 1954........Charles......................34,330... ......$352,654
May 16, 1955.........Don Cockell..............15,235.........$196,720
Sept. 21, 1955.......Archie Moore.............61,574.........$948,117

__________________________ Totals...259,619......$3,312,840


Marciano's Purses and Television Earnings from Title Fights
Opponent................Gate...................... ..Television....... Totals
Walcott.................$69,085................... ...$25,000....... = $94,085
Walcott.................$76,038................... ...$90,000....... = $166,038
LaStarza...............$141,624................... ..$53,125....... = $194,749
Charles................$200,586................... ..$47,452....... = $248,038
Charles................$120,608................... ..$54,000....... = $174,608
Cockell................$64,496.................... ...$50,000....... = $114,496
Moore...................$328,374.................. ..$140,000....... = $468,374

Totals.................$1,000,811................. ..$459,577....... = $1,460,388

 

Bummy ... I clearly prefaced my point before I made it because I anticipated exactly the sort of response I would get from Marciano apologists ... the points you continue to make support my point exactly ...

Two questions for you ... where do you rate Marciano all time as a heavyweight .. the second is can you make a similar argument for all time greatness for any other fighter in any other weight division ... example, what welterweight would you rate as an all time light heavy, ect ...

 

hhascup ... you have to understand that Marciano guys are unlike any other fans in the sport ... no laws of physics, no factors such as height, reach, resistance to cuts, defense, stylistic matchups matter ... they love and identify themselves by and with their man. In their mind he was never hurt in his entire career, fought all time top comparable opposition to prove his greatness, was actually fresher after a fight than before, threw more punches every minute of every round of his career then any other fighter, ect ... I've seen this on many boxing boards and it is interesting as I have never seen it to the same degree for any other fighter ... that is partially why I came to the conclusion I stated in my earlier post .. now the defensively minded, angry or less informed choose to call me racially motivated which is hilarious ... what else are they going to say ?

Janitor: Your a very knowlegable guy and I am not singling you out at all in the previous graph ... however, I want to address your earlier post ... in the fifty years following Marciano's reign there were two, very short term heavyweight titlists that were white, Ingo and Coetzee .. how do you rationalize a blowback against Marciano as a retired white champion when non-white titlists so dominated the division? I say fans idolized and created a myth around Marciano because he came from a time and a place that actual ring facts made no longer possible ... like still rooting fo the Green Bay Packers or the Brooklyn Dogers and saying they were better than teams of the 21st Century ..

I'll sum up Rocky again, to make sure the air is clear from my perspective ... Marciano was a GREAT fighter. He was a warrior wih tremendous heart who overachieved in a perfect storm of conditions ... the competition was good but flawed, he was well managed and he was smart enough to get out before he got beaten. Unlike other great small fighters of earlier times I do not feel his size, style or skills allow him to match up favorably with much bigger great , near great or simply very good men that followed ... that takes nothing away from him as a great fighter, just his rating as an all time great heavyweight .. Marciano would have been a terror for any fighter that every lived near his own weight and more than able to handle himself against many much larger men as well.

 

I heard he had a big following in England and saw pictures of him there. I assumed it was in UK, I know both him and Ali made a lot of money off of the interest of the UK....

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by he grant

This content is protected

I am a completely open minded guy from a major city my whole life and have friends of many races and religions ... I make these points before I make the following statement to stress I am purely making a sociological point .... here goes ....

If Marciano was not white the percentage of apologists for his obvious shortcomings, namely size and quality of opposition, would be cut down 90% ... With all respect in the world to Rocky, I believe this 100% .. no other slow, small, cut prone fighter with limited defensive ability has been backed by so many to defeat so many other men with better track records, better skills and significantly bigger size ...

His base is forever justifying the argument similiar to the 67 Packers as a best team ever ... Again with all respect to Rocky, a great small cruiserweight, I feel the argument by his supporters says more about the supporters than Rocky himself ..
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You just said if he was not White.....I dont look at color I look at greatness and I take that remark as an insult. For me Marciano showed heart, Power,conditioning(which I am big on) Determination and relentlessnes. Marciano was also a great puncher with late power.

Sam Langford is one that I think could compete in any era and he did well vs Large men...I think he is one of many small guys like Burns and Walker but was the best of the bunch and one of my lb for lb greats.

Mike Tyson,James Toney, ....Tyson did well against a lot of different fighters and Toney at 5"9 could have been a great Heavy if his condition was better, I was Impressed with him when he stopped Evander with body shots.(throwback) and Toney was at an advanced age.

Joe Louis
Marciano
Ali
Lewis
Walcott

Archie Moore
Billy Conn
Michael Spinks

SRR
Greb
Ketchel
Monzon
Hagler
Jake Lamotta

SSR
SRL
Barney Ross

Duran
Benny Leonard
Armstrong

 

It's a common mistake to look at Frazier and Marciano and say they were similar. Frazier was Marciano with less power, stamina and defense. Frazier did not just lose to Foreman; he was annihilated in 4 minutes. Marciano never got tired. Look at his late KO's of LaStarza and Walcott. He was fresh and strong in round 15 against Ezzard Charles, whereas Frazier was tired and quit on his stool against a tired Ali (and please don't tell me Ali was better than Charles).

Marciano di not just mindlessly swarm his opponent; he had a careful attacking style. He attacked while making himself difficult to hit. He kept his head back at an angle (like Norton did) and tucked his chin in (like Chuvalo and LaMotta). He could hit you from a distance by lunging forward (like Mayorga), neutralizing an opponent's jab. If his opponent had longer reach, he would stay skin-close to his man (see Louis vs Marciano). Frazier had none of this technical expertise. Don't fall for this comparison, there's only a superficial similarity between these two fighters.

Marciano was a complete fighter. He would have KO'd Foreman. First of all, Marciano would not have gained 15 pounds eating like a pig (look at Frazier's weight from his win over Ali to his fights with Foreman). And Marciano would not have fought at a distance. He would have stayed close where he could hit and Foreman couldn't. Foreman needs distance and leverage to throw his bobms. Marciano fought a similar opponent, Carmine Vingo. Vingo was battered so badly that he was in a come for 2 weeks, and never fought again. He was considered an up-and-coming heavyweight, like Tyson Fury today.

 

good point

 

First of all, when you say Patterson smashed Moore, you're trying to prove that light heavies were better than heavies, but they were both light heavies.

Second, Marciano's era looks weak only because no one beat him. You're blinded by his 49-0 record. If Ali had gone undefeated, you would be saying his era was weak too. Paradoxically, Ali's losses make his era seem stronger, and therefore make Ali himself seem stronger. Ali's television mystique makes people think he was "the greatest". And since Norton and Frazier beat him, then they must be great too. And since Foreman beat those two guys, then he's also great. And so on... And so this normal era is regarded as great. I like to call it the golden age of overweight boxing: a bunch of big, slow giants pounding away at each other.

 

You somehow think that big = good. You forget that in most HW title fights, the smaller guy wins. Tyson always destroyed his bigger opponents. His only real loss was against a smaller Holyfield. Dempsey was small but beat all the big guys he fought. Joe Louis fought several bigger men like Carnera, Baer, Simon and knocked them out.

Talent means everything. Size is irrelevant. You don't see a lot of Marciano's talent. He was not just a mindless swarmer like Frazier. He moved in and attacked without getting hit. He would have done better than Frazier in the 70's: he would have beaten Ali three times out of three (Frazier lost because of his limited stamina), and would have KO'd Foreman in the early rounds. Marciano's era was full of skillful guys. The 70's were entertaining because the guys were so big and fat. you guys should read these guys' weights on boxrec, they were so fat you won't believe it.