The two fights between Greb and Norfolk were the kind of career-ending street fights that no fighter with a half a brain wants. Brutality squared. Chances are that Greb suffered a torn retina in the first bout and in the second, he got disqualified although it sounds as if Norfolk should have been the one disqualified. Norfolk outweighed him by about 15 pounds by the way in the first mill and was a demon himself. This content is protected Greb fought some rough cats. Contrary to conventional opinion, the record indicates that he himself was not the foul-prone dirty fighter until after his sight was compromised after 1922. This is an argument made by Paxton and it's a good one. It may have been Greb's way of compensating for being half-blind.
Norfalk was exceptional himself but he was not stronger than Marciano, did not hit nearly as hard and gave Greb all he could handle ... I do not know if he was much faster than Rocky which is a very important question in a Greb match up ...
Norfolk was quick and I'd bet that he was quicker than the Rock. Harry toyed with guys who couldn't keep up with him. Whether he would beat Rocky is another story... he'd have a chance if they had to wear those old 5 ounce gloves because he could cut him up in time to avoid getting overrun. Who knows. All I know is that Greb is breathing down Robinson's neck as the best fighter who ever lived by my estimation.
So since alot of people are giving greb even money vs Marciano...how do you guys like grebs chances vs the likes of Tyson, Foreman, Liston, Louis, ??
Suzie's point is right on target though I imagine he has opened a can of worms for people will say that such guys as Tyson etc are much heavier and stronger than poor Marciano who only weighed 180s or so. Good grief! Where is all of this leading? As much as we can all admire such a fighter as Greb, perhaps we ought to remember, picking up for a minute what Stonehands mentioned above, that Robinson, in a reply to someone who suggested he fight Marciano exclaimed: "What the hell, you trying to get me killed." Or something like that.
Well, lets not forget that Bobo Olson was very confident in his chances against Marciano, that is until getting knocked out by Archie Moore of course. Don Cockell was a bloated light heavy who was KO'd in his prime by Randy Turpin, yet he withstood some of Marciano's bombs in a courageous attempt.
But Cockell was not bloated when he fought Turpin ,if you find pics of them you will have difficulty recognizing him as the tubby little man who Marciano used as a punch bag.
Yes, I've seen that fight. Cockell was in good shape at 175 lbs but I believe health problems caused him to move up in weight. Turpin basically had him out with one punch, which is surprising, considering that Marciano had to throw everything at Cockell to knock him down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CvvHXGovHQ 1:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d9OoCj89ok
Greb makes NO dent in The Rock's chin...Greb is hurt every time he gets hit..Marciano by KO over Harry Greb
Jimmy Ellis was a middleweight who lost 5 times, Bobby Cyz was a middle and moved up and did not make Evander Holyfield look good. Archie Moore was stopped by a middleweight yet beat up and Ko'd some big hard punching heavys.....How bad a man gets slaughtered and who slaughters him better does not really mean much....Marciano did not really think he was in a race to KO Cockel quicker than Turpin....
Agreed. My point however was that people shouldn't discount Greb's chances just because he was a middleweight. It's not like he didn't have success fighting heavyweights.
It's a continuum; Ray Leonard has a decent chance against Carlos Monzon, who has a decent chance against a lightheavyweight Gene Tunney, who has a decent chance against Rocky Marciano, who has a decent chance against Mike Tyson. That does not mean that Hearns has a decent chance against Mike Tyson. (Maybe Valuev, though...)
marciano was a hard punching pressure fighter. greb was a volume puncher/dirty trickster. marciano was able to outmuscle numerous, larger heavyweights while greb was able to outhustle all opponents albeit in an era of smaller heavies. marciano and greb were both double tough and able to take enormous amount of punishment. greb only faced one heavyweight of marcianos quality and that was dempsey, in sparring. marciano was a mountain of muscle who would lay pressure and heavy blows for 15 rounds on greb. greb's chin and body would survive but he would not be able to trade with rocky and would lose rounds on his lack of workrate. rocky would hurt greb with every hook and greb, tough as he was, would reduce his punch output accordingly. rocky would wear him down round after round and his hooks would take toll; greb's roughose tactics would not be of use and he would lose a tight but clear 15 round decision
Let me get this straight; it's crazy to think Greb at 160 with a proven track record of beating small heavyweights can defeat 185 pound Marciano but it's crazy not to think that a 185 pound Marciano has a real shot against a 215 pound Liston, a 220 pound Tyson or Foreman or a 240 pound Lewis, despite never fighting anyone of that caliber close to their physical prime ...? This is exactly what I mean about Marciano fanatics ... no logic , complete double standards ... Greb, who fought and defeated many top heavyweights of his time , has every right to be in a competitve match up against a 185 pound Marciano. If he wins such a match up is the question .