Yes, Floyd got jobbed real bad vs Quarry (in both their fights), and I've always been convinced that if he got the decision over Jerry, that he would have outpointed Thad Spencer and perhaps would have gone on to make history vs Ellis.
Red, here are my scorecards from both Patterson-Quarry fights. Actually had both very close. I scored it on the California system which is 1 point for the winner of a round (an additional point for a knockdown), no points for even rounds. Patterson-Quarry I Round 1: Even-no points Round 2: Quarry (2 knockdowns) 3 points Round 3: Patterson Round 4: Patterson Round 5: Patterson Round 6: Even Round 7: Patterson (1 knockdown) 2 points Round 8: Patterson Round 9: Quarry Round 10: Quarry Patterson 6-5 Patterson-Quarry II Round 1: Patterson Round 2: Quarry (1 knockdown) 2 points Round 3: Quarry Round 4: Quarry (1 knockdown) 2 points Round 5: Even Round 6: Quarry Round 7: Even Round 8: Patterson Round 9: Patterson Round 10: Patterson Round 11: Quarry Round 12: Patterson Quarry 7-5
It is entirely possible that Patterson, blew his nose during the fight after taking a punch around the eye. I remember that happening to a mate of mine when we boxed. He got out of the ring with me going in next and our trainer handed him a towel, he blew his nose and his eye swelled immediately. By the time I'd finished and got back to the dressing room, his eye was normal again. Getting back to Floyd, the man had huge ***** and invariably gave weight away, a real gent
I agree re ellis .history hasn't been kind to Floyd.hes remembered more for the liston and Ali losses than for beating a still lively Archie Moore and koing johannson through to his big 60s wins.
Interesting! So you had JQ winning the rematch? Since I respect your take on this, you've prompted me to watch the second bout again..and it's funny because very recently, I've been watching all those '67-'68 tournament bouts on You Tube...and sometimes I see things in each bout that my memory records otherwise...like the kd scored by Terrell on Thad Spencer.....I had thought of it as much as a slip as a kd, but I was wrong,...it was a pretty legit trip to the deck by Thad....not as conclusive as the one scored by Spencer over Ernie, but a legit kd anyway. What's your take on that California system anyway?
The California system is how one old boxing writer once told me, "It's the exact same as the 10 point must system only less math." And if you stop and think about it, he is absolutely right. When they ushered in that system - which I think was in the late '50s - there was a lot of pushback at the time. They were using something at the time called the Australian 11 point system. I have no idea what that is, but writers at the time said the Australian 11 point system was the best. God only knows. BTW, Red, what round did Ernie drop Thad? I have never seen the fight, but i'm curious because I have never heard about a knockdown scored by Ernie and now my curiosity is up.
scartissue, it was the 5th round,...near the end of the round, and Ernie sent Thad down with a beautiful left hook. For some reason, this bout has been relegated to a musty closet of boxing history,....and even more so, this kd of Spencer. When I read something on this bout, or go to Boxrec, they only mention Spencer's even more picturesque kd of Terrell in the 2nd. Terrell was having his moments, IMO,...and seemed to be rallying after that 5th round, but Thad maintained his steady body attack and by the 9th, the fight had gone his way in the scoring.
Patterson was a very talented fighter .. a very small heavyweight but without question with faster hands than Ali and very good power. His issue was simply his chin .. D'Amato protected him to his detriment as champion. Floyd fought a poor list of challengers, as bad as those Charles fought .. after being destroyed by Liston and embarrassed by Ali he did fight and fought better against much better opposition but even at his best, whenever that was, he was never competing with Ali or Liston, both of whom had huge stylistic advantages .. Chuvalo and Bonavena were no where near the class of Sonny or Ali ..
Red, I just watched the fight and the 5th round is amazing inasmuch as what you said. How could that 5th round knockdown just disappear into the ether?? I have never heard about it and just now I did a little research and you know what I found? Nothing! It is never even mentioned. I will give Spencer his due in the post fight interview with Cosell. He said he was backing up when the punch landed (which doesn't mean anything because that is still a knockdown) and the ref didn't count him. And that much seems to be true. Referee Jimmy Webb doesn't wave 'no knockdown' like the refs today would, but he doesn't appear to count like he did with the 2nd round knockdown and gets them going again pretty quick. The announcing team of Chris Schenkel and Cosell continually refer to it as a knockdown throughout the fight. Again, today we would know about it rather quickly whether to score it a knockdown or not. In my opinion, that is as clean a knockdown as you can get and I scord it as much. I had it 115-111 for Spencer (116-111 without the extra point). This was a great find, Red, and I'm still amazed that it has never been mentioned or brought up as a controversy in a post-fight review. It would be like watching the Zapruder film and saying, "How come nobody noticed that guy with the Tommy-gun behind that bush?" Thanks again, Red.
My pleasure my friend...glad to know we're somewhat kindred spirits regarding this tournament....it fascinated me as a budding 14 year old fight fan. Everyone was so taken by Terrell's trip to the canvas...but that seemed to spur Ernie on ...he kinda wanted to even the score, so to speak...fighting with uncharacteristic aggressiveness...I think this kd is somewhat parallel to Floyd Patterson's kd pf Jerry Quarry in their first bout..you know, resulting from that "invisible" right by Floyd. The two trips to the canvas scored by Jerry got the headlines,...and at times, back then, that 7th round trip to the canvas by Jerry got no coverage for some reason.
red cobra quote: it was the 5th round,...near the end of the round, and Ernie sent Thad down with a beautiful left hook. For some reason, this bout has been relegated to a musty closet of boxing history,....and even more so, this kd of Spencer. When I read something on this bout, or go to Boxrec, they only mention Spencer's even more picturesque kd of Terrell in the 2nd. Terrell was having his moments, IMO,...and seemed to be rallying after that 5th round, but Thad maintained his steady body attack and by the 9th, the fight had gone his way in the scoring. According to the ringside report by Peter Wilson of the UK Daily Mirror " In the 5th round Terrell landed a left hook to Spencer's jaw. Admittedly Spencer was partly off balance and going backwards anyway. But he went down as the direct result of a punch to his jaw and he took his own sweet time getting up. The referee ruled that it was NOT a knockdown. Throughout Terrell was guilty of a variety of fouls - hitting on the break, mauling instead of fighting, wrestling Spencer around, rabbit punching." Clearly Terrell should have been credited with a knockdown. Wilson went on - "Spencer fought the fight of his life. The man I saw backing away from Brian London in the closing rounds of their fight 15 months ago outgamed and outlasted the twisted giant." Page 19 Daily Mirror Aug 7th 1967. Terrell was an 8-5 favourite. Wilson gave Thad 7 rounds to 5 for Ernie.
To be fair, Liston would make a lot of heavyweights look chinny and he was the only fighter to put Floyd down for a ten count. Every other time Floyd was KD'd, he got up. He survived Ingo in their two rematches and the likes of Moore, Quarry and Bonavena were hardly feather-fists. Part of his problem was poor balance caused by his style and those leaping left hooks. That and he was nearly always the smaller man in the ring.
Crixus, thanks for the research on that. Good to know that we're not crazy on this subject. Credit Redcobra for resurrecting this.