Rob, that's rich coming from you. Your recent statements about David haye prove how changeable your 'opinion' is. I base my opinion on the facts and my interpretation of them. I tend to be consistent and, because I thought it through the first time, dont need to change often. But for the record, Id rate Froch, Montiel, Pacquiao, Cotto, Mayweather, Martinez, Wlad Klitschko, Hopkins, Bradley and Lopez above Ward. Thats not even a top ten list, just ten fighters more accomplished and with better opposition right now.
No way! Haye is the WBA HW champ. He was the unified CW champ, moved up on weight, sparked Barrett who looked half decent against Tua recently, won the WBA title away from home by not getting hit once against a top 10 HW, knocked out Ruiz in 9 (top ten HW), and Adamek should be above him? Better yet, Margo should be above him after he had his arse handed to him in his two of his 3 previous fights, getting annihilated in both?
My point is my is changable and that is a good thing. People can have a debate with me and I am open to what they have to say. You cannot do that with you. You cannot possibaly have Lopez and Froch ahead of Ward. Lopez does not have a win as significant as Kessler. No way. His record is full of B level fighters exactly the same as Green, Bika and Miranda. Froch lost to Kessler...end of story.
Tua is overrated, always has been. That Barrett got a draw against him reflects more on Tua than on Haye. The heavyweight division is **** - Valuev and Ruiz would have struggled to make the top 10 at any time in the 1990s..... Adamek has wins over Golota, Arreola, Estrada.... alright it's no great shakes but he beat as good a cruiserweight champion than Haye did in Cunningham and also won a title at 175 only losing to Dawson. Margarito probably shouldn't be on the list at all, but still..... losing to Mosley and Pacquiao isn't anything to be ashamed of. This isn't part of my wider anti-Haye agenda (at least I'm honest :yep) I just think that the ranking is pretty fair based on all factors that need to be taken into consideration. How far do we go back when considering past achievements, that's the thing. Haye's beaten some decent fighters in his time but has essentially been a part timer since beating Enzo, and as such has allowed other fighters from both here and abroad to steal a march on him. If I was to name a top 20 list now, it would look something like.... 1. Pacquiao 2. Mayweather 3. Marquez 4. Martinez 5. Wlad Klitschko The next 15 places could be any of.... Froch Pascal Hopkins Bute Bradley Cotto Lopez Montiel Vitali Klitschko Nishioka Dawson Berto Alexander Ward John Rafael Marquez Donaire + a few others. On reflection maybe I am a bit harsh in saying #56 is fair, but it's not a million miles off.
I'm open to my opinion changing if the facts support it, but I consider most angles before I state an opinion. It's not a good thing if you flip-flop around in the manner you do - ****, Haye was the anti-christ not even three months ago, now he's the saviour? I can easily have Lopez ahead of Ward: wins over Luevano (reigning titlist ), Marquez (proven veteran who gave him hell) and Concepcion, plus a great win over Ponce De Leon are better than a single win over Kessler. Froch gets my nod because he's fought and beaten a much better class of opponent at SMW. He's beaten Pascal, Taylor, and completely dominated Abraham. Ward has got Miranda (beaten three times before, twice in more dominant fashion- including being knocked out by Abraham - and once after in much better style by Bute), Kessler (who gave his all against Froch, but looked a shade of the man who'd faced Calzaghe since that fight), Green (who had lost to Miranda already and had never looked good) and Bika, who had already lost to Bute and Calzaghe. It's an ok ledger, but not something that shows him as a top ten fighter. Top 50 is fair, top ten is ludicrous based on his accomplishments.
Genuinley one of the most bias replied I have even seen. you clearly have something agaisnt Ward so there no point bothering. at a minumum he is top 15.
Fair enough, you make some good points and you have obviously thought about it. But we'll have to agree to disagree I think. Your right in that losing to both Pacquiao and SSM is no disgrace, but the way he lost (ie being KO'ed in 1 and losing every round in the other) doesn't merit a place above a HW champ IMO. As for Pavlik, who knows if the guy will ever fight again (I think he came out of rehab the other day). Even still, he was demolished by Hopkins (not many haven't to be honest) but was also badly beaten up by Martinez. Again, does this warrent a place ahead of a HW champ who has KO'ed all but one of his opponents since moving up? I'm not so sure. IMO, Haye should be top 40, maybe even as low as 30.
I don't have anything against Ward. After he beat Kessler I said I thought he was a future elite - but he has some way to go yet. Another two years or so. He's a great talent and I don't see many guys out there beating him, but he's not proved that except against Kessler. Putting him as a top 15 fighter, right now, is just impossible to reason without using 'potential' as a platform. And potential isn't an objective criteria. Kessler was a good win. He was a heavy favourite over Green and Bika and did exactly what he was supposed to do. My reply cannot be 'bias' but it can be 'biased'. Which it is, but only in so much as all your replies, and everyone else's are biased. I have opinions. That's a bias. No one will ever be unbiased - it's not possible. But all I'm doing is presenting my opinion. And the irony of you accusing anyone of bias is not lost on me.
I consider Pavlik in a similar sort of way to Haye, in that they went from being underrated to being way overrated, especially Pavlik. Haye's moment of reckoning is on it's way, if he gets the job done all credit to him..... Pavlik lost his big fight against Hopkins and only managed an easy win or two before being beaten up by Martinez. Both promised plenty and didn't quite deliver..... in ones case he can redeem himself, the other will have a long road back if and when he returns.
who am I biased towards??? Its biased against Ward as you have picked holes in his wins over Green, Bika, Miranda and even Kessler but failt to mentions the exact same criteria in the Lopez wins your mentioned. Picking Froch over Ward in rankings is also beyond biased. Ward dominated Kessler who beat Froch in the next fight. Thats as simple as it can get. at the end of the day theres most people on hear that agree with me than you. read Beestons post about a top 5 and then the rest. thats makes sense and guess what....Ward is in his list of possible top 10 guys.
Haye should be top 30 imo, maybe around 30 would be fair. HE should be little behind Froch and Khan imo.
What's that got to do with anything? And I'd seriously doubt that anyway - especially since you're the one who made Haye-Wlad happen! Preferring one fighter's accomplishments over another's is not biased, unless my reasons for doing so display clear bias. Kessler was a good win, but wins over Pascal, Taylor and Abraham plus the close loss to Kessler (which some thought should go the other way) to me are worth more. Plus Green's ****ing **** and was taken out in style by Johnson. The Bika win is also good but not as good as Froch's last win over Abraham. That's not bias, Rob, that's an opinion based on the evidence. You need to learn the difference. You might not agree with it, but there's no need to wet yourself over it. What holes in Lopez's wins? Luevano was a good champion who'd been unbeaten for years. Concepion was a decent contender, nothing special but Lopez blasted him out. Marquez was a tough challenge and gave Lopez trouble, but he overwhelmed him. Are you going to tell me Kessler is better relatively than Marquez is? All those wins are more impressive than Ward's in my opinion. But if you're going to seriously argue that Ward is more accomplished than Lopez, I really can't take you seriously.
Rating Froch over Ward = UK bias. Ward is undefeated and beat the only fighter to beat Froch, although many people also thought Dirrell beat Froch. Ward would definitely be the betting favourite against Froch...
Ward didn't beat Froch though. And Froch's overall quality of opposition, and the fact he won against them, counts. Yes, the Kessler loss hurts him, but realistically Froch has achieved more and beaten better opponents, bar Kessler.
