Ron Lyle...

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Blacc Jesus, Oct 4, 2007.


  1. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    I agree that George would likely take this fight, but I disagree with your claim that Quarry couldn't box a lick unless he was in with a journeyman. Quarry was definately a class boxer and a half way decent puncher as well. He defeated a lot of ranked fighters and was a deserving top 10 contender for the better part of nearly 10 years. The only reason I pick Foreman is because I can't see Quarry dusting him early like he did Shavers, nor hanging in there for 10 or 15 rounds to out point or out hustle George. He's be taking a lot of extremeley hard shots and likely cutting and swelling as each round past. Quarry however, was a better tactical fighter than George was. Although Foreman had better wins against Norton and Frazier, Quarry's list of top fighters was certainly longer. The Lyle fight was the only time in the 70's that Goerge showed that he could come back after being hurt to chalk up a win. The other two occasions ( Ali and Young ) resulted in losses. Quarry showed heart and savy more often.
     
  2. jowcol

    jowcol Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Now you're patronizing me?
    What did Foreman do after Ali? No rematch for sure; Ali wanted no part of that. 5 stiffs in one day? A sloppy performance against Lyle; a sloppy performance against Young? He wasn't the same but still much, much better than Jerry after his "steep decline" as you put it. But you want them in prime and that could be a late spring, early summer 73 prior to any of the above.

    You're obviously one of the Quarry nut-hugger varieties; but, to be fair, I tend to be that way with Patterson, however, I am forced to accept the chinks in my hero's armor on occasion. Fact: Quarry got pummeled and ripped to shreds twice by a man who hit roughly half as hard as a prime George had much less a jaw as George, and who Jerry was unable to hurt in either fight and who Foreman destroyed. Agree to disagree and let's move on...

    have a good evening;
    j
     
  3. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    What similarities can you think of that Joe Frazier and George Foreman shared?

    Didn't Ali lose to Frazier while beating Foreman?
     
  4. Blacc Jesus

    Blacc Jesus . Full Member

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    Thanks. But could you elaborate on having Frazier so low?
     
  5. jowcol

    jowcol Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Our "debate" is now finished with that tidbit.

    Good luck;
    j
     
  6. Duodenum

    Duodenum Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I was surprised myself as I compiled this list, and as I stated, this is certainly subject to revision. Tough calls were made in this process.

    Joe didn't have a great right hand, and he didn't usually produce the sort of clean one punch knockout that Coetzee sometimes carried off. It was a very close call between Knoezte's right and Frazier's left, but Kallie's staggering early round knockout percentage within the decade persuaded me to tentatively lean towards him.

    Quarry was a faster starter and dangerous with both fists. For all his reputation as a great hooker, his right hand against Bodell was more impressive to me than Joe's hook against Bob Foster and Ziggy. Jerry also stood his ground more than Smoke, with his counterpunching magnifying the impact of his blows. That sort of counterpunching can be more devastating than Joe's brand of mobile blitzkrieg swarming. Until Joe Alexander, round one almost always belonged to Quarry.

    Mac Foster's knockout record was simply too staggering to ignore, but his name is one I could wind up deleting entirely at another time. I must confess that I'm not quite as informed about him as I ought to be.

    What are the knocks on Joe's power? Well, he nailed Foreman in their rematch, and failed to budge George. Bonavena took everything he had in 25 rounds of combat. He failed to drop Chuvalo, and couldn't finish off Bugner after dropping him. (In fact, Smoke was nearly decked himself after Bugner got back to his feet.) He probably hit Ali more than all of Muhammad's other amateur and professional opponents combined, yet couldn't put him away, and only dropped him once. He dropped Jimmy Ellis twice in devastating fashion, but couldn't keep him down. He busted up Stander, but didn't have the firepower to bring him down or knock him back.

    Coetzee, Quarry, Knoetze and Mac Foster are extremely close calls for me over Frazier, and on a different day, I might well leapfrog Joe over all of them. It's also a strong possibility that I would place Cooney above Frazier in the process of doing so. (Ditto Bonavena. I'm just not certain.)

    For me, Joe Frazier was more of an attrition swarmer than a power puncher. It doesn't matter how hard somebody punches if they don't hit the target in the first place, and Frazier was considerably more successful than Quarry at reaching Ali. But in doing so, he had to have sacrificed some power in the process.

    Now, if you were to hold a gun to my head, and insist I fill in the blank, I could have any combination of Lyle, Cooney, Foreman, Liston and Frazier round out my top five below Shavers.

    You tossed out an extremely challenging question, one I tried to answer as best I could, off the cuff. (Am I the only one willing to stick their neck out in answering this one?)

    Joe Frazier is a top five all-time heavyweight in my book, sometimes top four. (Dempsey, Louis, Ali and Holmes are my others. I tend to alternate Frazier with Louis at number four.)
     
  7. Blacc Jesus

    Blacc Jesus . Full Member

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    :clap: Great post. I have a much better understanding on your picks now.

    Also, any more info on Mac Foster? I never hear too much about him, but his record is amazing.
     
  8. Sonny Carson

    Sonny Carson Well-Known Member Full Member

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    That was because he had punched himself out it had nothing to do with his chin.
     
  9. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    Did you know that boxing also existed in other decades than the 70's?
     
  10. Blacc Jesus

    Blacc Jesus . Full Member

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    I asked him to compile a list for the top 10 hardest hitters during the 70's.
     
  11. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    :oops:

    My apologies.
     
  12. Sonny Carson

    Sonny Carson Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Frazier should be higher than Quarry and your right about Holmes his power was very underrated, Norton too.
     
  13. Duodenum

    Duodenum Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I've been wondering if I shouldn't have simply tied Quarry, Frazier, Norton and Bonavena together, but that's a rather wimpy and lazy way out, one that I am indeed guilty of indulging in from time-to-time. Naming a top five would have been a little easier, but I wanted to try meeting the challenge given to provide a top ten listing.
     
  14. Duodenum

    Duodenum Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The only footage I've viewed of him was in his losing efforts against Quarry and Ali. Evidently, he was described as the second coming of Joe Louis while an undefeated prospect, supposedly dragging his right foot in similar fashion. But again, viewing one of his performances in a winning effort would definitely be more revealing. One of Ali's most overlooked wins, probably because of the way Quarry had previously taken him out.
     
  15. Cojimar 1945

    Cojimar 1945 Member Full Member

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    Some of the fights where Lyle failed to score kayoes or lost do not seem to indicate lack of power due to the great durability of his opponnents. Bonavena was only stopped once in his career, and that was in the 15th round. Ali was very durable and the same is true of Bugner. Guys lasted the distance with Tyson and Lewis as well.