I rank Dempsey above Joe Louis ,I do so because I think he gets Louis out of there inside 3 rds. I couldn't give a sh*t what colour he or any other fighter is.
Speculation is the meat and drink of this forum,matching fighters from different eras.Without speculation there would be no basis for a forum! I'm going to speculate,if Liston had gotten his title chance around the time Floyd and Ingo were," playing the parcel "with the title,how many title defences might he have made? Patterson Johannson Williams Terrell Harris Machen Folley Who of these contenders would you make favourite over a prime Liston? Would it have been then "ludicrous " to place him in a top ten?
My top three are - Ali Louis Holmes I'm consistent with these but always changing my mind about the others. Will have a ponder.
I don't think it's ludicrous to place him in the top 10. I said it was close to ludicrous to have him in the top 5. Ok, let's say he gets the chance at Floyd in 1959, instead of Ingo, on the back of beating Valdes. My guess is that his activity level would drop dramatically, as it did after beating Floyd in 1962. So Floyd gets a rematch in 1960. In 1961 Sonny defends against Ingo, perhaps with a filler thrown in. In 1962 against Machen. In 1963 against Folley, and then Clay in 1964. We might actually well miss out on his wins against Williams and Harris, which must count among his better ones.
I don't think its ludicrous to place him in a personal top5. He has excellent chances of beating Frazier,Marciano,Holyfield,Tyson ,Foreman,who regularly feature highly in others top tens.
I rank a fighter after what he has done, not on what I speculate that he might do. So for me it's close to ludicrous, since I just don't think his resume merits it.
HEY! I am very offended by this; HONKY DOES NOT HAVE AN E IN IT'S SPELLING LIKE DONKEY. HONKY. GET IT RIGHT! Or post elsewhere
Of course I haven't seen all his early fights, since they weren't all recorded. But of his opponents that were near Floyd's level he only stopped Harris as one-sidedly. I haven't seen the fight against Folley, but from reports the first two rounds were fought on pretty even terms, with Zora getting some good shots in. Floyd didn't last a full round in any of his two tries and weren't on even terms at any time in any of them. He was steamrolled.
I like that. Holmes was so great! I love him getting his props. Really even with my list it is just the top 10. I think any one of them on my list could be the best ever. I could see Holmes beating every heavyweight in history. Same with the rest under their rules and circumstances.
You have Ali #2 behind Holmes yet he beat Liston #5, Foreman #6 and Frazier #7 two out of three. Holmes best win is probably his win over an aged Ken Norton vs Ali's over the other three ATG's. I am confused.
This is my point. I still have Dempsey in the 12-15 range, which for his resume speaks highly of his skills and abilities.
The same guy who reigned for 5 years and was the youngest to ever do it at the time, and only lost to two of your top 3 (one of whom as I've said, is a bit ridiculous) and once to Joey Maxim without then winning re-matches through his prime (Having won his Olympic Gold at middleweight)? Yes I think he deserves to JUST slide in
