Who would have the best chance of flooring George Chuvalo

For me faster and more explosive punchers, like Tyson and Louis has better chances to achieve a real knockout (not TKO) against George Chuvalo.

 

None of them but if forced to choose I say Tyson. If Foreman couldn't do it then neither could Liston.

 

Shavers. Maybe Wilder.

Chuvalo might actually beat those guys, floored or not.

 

What about = Elmer " Violent " Ray or Curtis " Hatchet Man " Shepperd. Just like saying the names....

 

Please elaborate...

 

On which part? Only Tyson maybe being able to do it or Liston not being able to because Foreman couldn't? I consider Foreman to share many characteristics with Liston (more that probably any other fighter) and being an all around better fighter.

 

The latter. I don't think Foreman and Liston are as similar as you make them out to be, as their are distinct differences between the 2. I also disagree, Foreman was more well-rounded, as Liston is the better boxer in my eyes. In any case, your logic is flawed for two reasons.

1. Foreman was still green, when he fought Chuvalo. He was a 21 year old kid, when he fought Chuvalo and only two years into his boxing career (a mere three if you count amateurs).

2. Foreman would've undoubtedly knocked Chuvalo out had the ref let him continue. Hell, he may've killed him if that onslaught continued!

 

I think we actually agree here. Foreman and Liston have specific distinct differences, notably in foot speed, and I also agree that Foreman was more well rounded. However I do disagree that Liston was the better boxer. Imo Liston was a pretty upright straight forward fighter whereas Foreman was similar but had more depth. Either way its such a small difference that I don't believe it's worth arguing about.

Honestly in Foreman's case I don't really think that matters much. He didn't go through much of a transformation as a fighter in his first career. He was a killer from his debut. If you want to get technical about it then just look at who he fought prior to Frazier and after Chuvalo over the course of a bit over 2 years. Out of his next 15 fights, 9 of them had losing records. Of those six leftover with winning records: 1 had only 3 fights, another was 11-9, one had lost 3/4 prior fights and would not win another fight, another was 18-7, and the other two were Gregorio Peralta and Boone Kirkman. Both of which Foreman outweighed (more so with Peralta) and who's skills were shallow at best. Foreman shouldn't have had a problem beating both fighters and he didn't. Good experience for that time but Foreman didn't go through any dramatic changes between those two fights that made him significantly better and more equipped for Frazier outside of the gain in experience which Foreman needed.

I think that's a rather inaccurate framing of events. The fight was pretty competitive until that point with 32 year old Chuvalo putting up a good fight. Foreman staggered him into the ropes momentarily and kept punching. Chuvalo visibly recovered pretty quickly and was protecting himself. Even manged to get out of the corner and move across the ring where he got pinned again and Foreman continued to open up. Chuvalo still was protecting himself and firing back. Even making Foreman miss. There really isn't anything that happened to say Foreman might have killed him had the fight gone on. If anything it could be seen as a bit of a premature stoppage and Foreman might have gassed had the fight continued. Chuvalo was getting beat up at the end and the fight was stopped. TKO. That's all there really is to it.

And this is about who could have floored Chuvalo. I think Liston was certainly capable of stopping Chuvalo but he probably wouldn't have floored him. Frazier, Foreman, Patterson, Bonavena, and Ali 2x were all unable to floor him. If they couldn't I really don't see why Liston would be able to. Last I checked Liston never floored anyone with a similar chin to Chuvalo.

 

If chuvalo turned from that shot, you can bet everyone in history turns from the same situation. A tough tough man, must’ve caught him bad

 

Their seems to be some confusion. I disagreed with your notion that Foreman was better.

Liston was more skilled, more coordinated, had a higher ring IQ, used his jab more, put his power to better use, had more stamina, and was better able to adapt as seen against Williams, and Machen. As opposed to Foreman who's plan B if plan A didn't work out was "let's keep going with Plan A" which cost him against Ali, Young, and nearly Lyle.

He also has a much better track record against boxers. He beat Machen 10-2 in rounds, while Foreman lost to his slickster in Young.

Are you suggesting Foreman hit his prime 2 years into his pro career? By the time he fought Frazier he'd had more than double the experience (granted his resume going into the Frazier bout was less than stellar)

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He was trapped in the corner, and had taken 30 something punches, and wasn't throwing anything back. Safe to say, the stoppage was a right one.

Chuvalo is that you?

Ali, and Patterson weren't exactly seen as monster punchers. Bonavena arguably DID floor him. Frazier and Foreman were both green and still garnered stoppage victories over Chuvalo, which if the referee didn't stop, would've been a true KO (as in down for the count) imo. Especially Frazier imo. Completely shattered poor Chuvalo's orbital bone with that hook. First and only time I saw Chuvalo actually turn away. Not even Foreman gave him a beating that bad.

He not only floored, but knocked out numerous durable men who'd never hit the canvas prior. Most notably Wayne Bethea, I believe.

 

Completely agree, though Foreman got a lot ring smarter at the height of his comeback. He definitely thought out the Moorer fight. That said, Liston was more advance as far as overall boxing skills go...Foreman was mostly about positioning opponents for power punches.

 

Yes his ring IQ had completely improved when he came back, and he developed the jab and/or at least used it more consistently.

 

A rather small disagreement that I don't think is worth arguing about in the grand scheme of this conversation.

Who exactly did Liston have to display this against? Ali was without a doubt his greatest opponent and he lost pretty decisively in both fights. It wasn't close. Foreman's results were better against Ali while being in extreme heat. Foreman's win over Joe Frazier is without a doubt superior to anyone Liston bested. What I'm saying is, how much of a ring IQ, coordination, and skills does it take to beat fighters you outweigh on average by about 20-30 lbs and that are, in the case of Floyd Patterson, absolutely perfect for you stylistically? Frazier was a really good match for Foreman stylistically but at least he had a decent chin and weighed almost exactly the same as Foreman. Patterson was known for being knocked down more than any champ and was outweighed by 24 and 21 lbs in each fight.

I can't really disagree there. All I can really say is Foreman was pretty burnt out mentally when he fought Young so it's not exactly a fair comparison but it's still valid. From what I've seen, Foreman was much better at cutting off the ring than Liston was. Overall, I think boxers were all types of wrong for both of them. A young and rather green fighter from Louisville boxed Liston's ears off.

Even though it would help my argument I'm not going to say that because I really don't believe it. I do think he was pretty darn close to it.

What do you mean he had double the experience? He had 21 fights or so going into Chuvalo and 37 going into Frazier. That's less than double. You must be referring to time active which I've never heard of anyone going by that. You gain experience by fighting, not holding a boxing license for x amount of time.

I don't think you're watching the video you linked. Chuvalo was clearly staggered and fell into the ropes. Chuvalo proceeds to fight defensively while Foreman opens up. Foreman misses quite a few punches (about 13) for someone that you say is standing right in front of him and is about to literally die as you put it. You don't miss that many punches from your opponent standing still. Hell, Foreman even missed the last few punches prior to the referee stopping it if you watch the tape. Foreman was visibly gassed by the time of the stoppage. I wouldn't be surprised if Chuvalo was hurt for about 10 seconds or so and regained his senses to let Foreman open up on him and burn all of his fuel up. That's what the film looks like it's showing and that's exactly what Ali did a few years later.

I'll create clips for you if you still disagree and more importantly, are open to having your mind changed. If you aren't open to it then I won't waste my time.

No, this is Dan Daly. Veteran of the Banana Wars, Boxer Rebellion, and WW1. Also was twice the Medal of Honor recipient.

Ali had won 18 or so out of his 22 fights by knockout at that point. With a 10 count knockout win over Sonny Liston. I'd say that's a pretty legit puncher. Although Ali was better at wearing his opponents down and stopping them through an accumulation of punches rather than any one punch.

Patterson was definitely a big punching heavyweight. Only two of his fights at heavyweight went the distance prior to fighting Chuvalo. Eddie Machen and Tommy Jackson (who he later knocked out). Even Sonny Liston wasn't able to knock out Eddie Machen. Patterson clearly had better results against Machen as well. Liston had to cheat and use **** on his opponents that would make their eyes burn rather than beat them fair and square. What do you say to that?

Your idea that they would have been KOs are just that. Your opinion. They didn't happen. Foreman's work rate slowed down and he was visibly tired.

Bethea was actually knocked down by Nino Valdes in the bout prior to Liston. Who else are you referring to?

 

Bonavena

 

Tyson has the best chance

His combinations coupled with speed and power are the best formula to score knock downs and knock outs