He had quite a good heavyweight record at that time but how do you think he would have fared from say 80-84 or in the 90's? How do you think he would have fared thrown in with early 70's Ali, Frazier, Foreman and Norton? Different kettle of fish of course.
It did make a difference which style he was going up against. Aggressive guys like Bonavena and Ledoux he did well punching hard even in the later rounds. He did fine against an aging Ali before getting caught by a bad shot, although he did need to catch his 2nd wind in the 8tj round I think as you pointed out. Still doesn't mean he he had "bad" stamina. Joe Louis, Holmes, Ali himself, even Joe Frazier sometimes needed to catch their second wind. That's how sports works, did you box before? No one just fires on all cylinders from round 1 to 12 at top speed without slowing down or skipping a beat lol. Rocky's defense was not "stellar" lol. One of these days I'm going to pick 5 fights for each major champion and show the stats for how often they got hit. As for your argument that if he isn't knocking guys out late that means his stamina is shot and has no power... again, I find it strange that someone who obviously watches a lot of boxing would say that. Holyfield and Bowe were unable to knock each other out in their first legendary battle, does that mean their punches had no sting on them? Any ordinary heavyweight would have gotten slaughtered if they changed places with one of them. Same thing for Ali vs Frazier or Tyson vs Ruddock. You think they weren't throwing hard late? I have no idea what you are trying to suggest here. As I mentioned, Lyle was apparently hitting Bugner so hard that his body needed to be out on ice. Just because someone doesn't get KOd doesn't mean the other guy wasn't throwing hard. And Bugner was a very tall and cautious fighter who was very difficult to KO. No one except Ali managed to stop Bonavena, does that mean Ali hits harder than Lyle? What are you even getting at here?
Was it like Peralta doing better against Lyle second time around? when Lyle was as old as Peralta he was fighting Gerry Cooney.
Pure speculation. One would expect that Mike Tyson would have beaten every opponent that his opponents beat. Yes he lost to Douglas who got thrashed by the good but not great contender Tony Tucker. That's not how real boxing works, let alone hypothetical matchups. Moore had been in more than 200 boxing matches. No, it is not reasonable to assume Rocky beats everyone Moore beat with 100% certainty.
Iirc many thought Valdez deserved the verdict against Moore. Also regarding the referee, it was actually James Braddock.
I don’t doubt Bugner said all those things but I don’t believe a word of it. Joe outpointed Lyle in a close fight, he just didn’t get the decision. It was a good fight but nowhere near as hard or as gruelling as the one Bugner had with Joe Frazier where Bugner was hit a lot harder and more often by a much better fighter.
Some writers certainly scored it for Valdes. Peter Wilson of the Daily Mirror for one. I think the majority view was that Moore shaded it.
The difference is how Moore did it. In the recent fuller upload from George, Moore is actually the better man on the inside and is even pushing Valdes back, bulling him. He didn't box him in the classical outside sense. That's probably why @70sFan865 (and others such as myself) find the performances impressive. Based on that, the second fight was likely even better for Moore strength wise. Moore was also 196lbs in that one, and if he could do this as the smaller man against Valdes, it's not impossible to envision against Lyle.
I actually have Marcianos defensive stats. His actual stats from compubox. Trust me his defense was stellar. Especially compared to other greats. The only one that is ahead of Rocky is Wlad as far as the top tier goes. And there is a lot of space between Rocky and the next guy (think it’s Frazier). I will list the old time fighters tomorrow but think they did Foreman, Holy, Frazier, Tyson, Louis, Ali, Liston, Dempsey, Wlad, Lewis, Holmes and maybe one other and compares them all I really don’t want to keep hanging on this stamina issue as I’ve explained it a lot in this thread and there are plenty of other factors. But I don’t believe Lyle from footage has late round power. Some fighters do and some dont. You brought up Tyson and he’s a perfect example of a guy who losses his powe late rounds (I’ve heard his own trainers say he drastically losses power after the sixth idk how accurate that is but he does have a lot fewer KOs after then doesn’t mean he won’t have any just that he’s not AS affective). Some people do have late round power like Marciano Frazier Wilder they call it carrying your power, I’m sure you’ve heard of it you’re a smart boxing guy. I’ve boxed before not professionally. Some men take less rounds off then others and some even with taking rounds off are less affective as the fight wears on. I have you the benefit of the doubt and went back and rewatched Lyle fights. Even the Scott fight you posted and he tires in all of them. It boils down to you think he’s still affective late I don’t. We aren’t going to Agree.
In an interview in 2004, Bugner said that the hardest puncher he had ever faced was Earnie Shavers and the biggest beating he took was from Ron Lyle "What was the worst loss you ever had, Joe", Welch enquired respectfully. "Against Ron Lyle in 1977, in Las Vegas," replied Bugner. "I got the beating of my life." https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/bugner-back-to-talk-a-good-fight-1340631.html Don't really care what you believe to be perfectly honest. Bugner has maintained his position that Lyle was his most brutal and gruelling fight throughout the years. Bugner had bright red welts all over his abdomen from the vicious body shots, you can see them on screen.
Again you are confusing late round power with late round stamina. Those are two different things. I never said Lyle was a devastating late round puncher. My point was that in literally all of the fights you brought up, including some of the losses, Lyle rallies late and continued to punch hard with a high volume output. That is not even debatable it's on film. So your criticism that he had "stamina issues" due to lacking a large number of late round KOs is completely invalid. You can win fights even if you don't have devastating late round power. that's why I brought up Holyfield vs Bowe, Tyson vs Ruddock, etc.
I have Peter Wilson’s book. In it he mentioned this fight. Against Valdes Archie proved “a great ring mechanic”, says that Moore manoeuvred himself so that the setting sun was in Valdes eyes for the first 7 rounds. Up until then he had Moore well ahead until a very low blow from Nino swung things the Cubans way until the 13th when moore hurt Valdes to the body and closed ninos right eye. If Archie had not been so much over his best fighting weight Peter felt Archie might have finished nino off in round 14 but said Archie could not “quite pull it out” losing the last round because he was so desperately tired from the beating he gave Nino in round 14.
It isn’t. Watch Bugner against Frazier. It is twice as brutal and gruelling a fight than the bout bugner had with Lyle. please watch Lyle vs Bugner and you will be able to make the comparison. Bugner won against Lyle. It isn’t a brutal fight at all. Bugner was marginally in control. Against Frazier he took a beating.
