Did David Haye have the ability to beat Wlad but simply lacked the Courage?

I would say he was doing all he was capable of and it simply didn't work and he didn't know how to do anything else. Sometimes when a guy loses like that, people think he's not trying. I think he tried plenty, and failed.

 

i only watched round 12 on youtube and will have to watch the rest soon but by that last round, i thought that if haye fought with a better game plan, he would have done a lot better against wlad (based on the scorecards i saw).... Haye looked to have the speed, movement AND punch to do well against wlad... during one exchange, Haye caught Wlad with an overhand right that momentarily stunned Wlad and he had to hold... but other than that, Haye didn't take enough risks (which is very disappointing because he has the skills).

 

I voted Wlad would still beat him regardless of courage...

Haye is a counter-punching slugger, who is tentative, has a low workrate of about 24/25 punches per round, & fights on the backfoot against Superheavy opponents. Maybe Haye tried harder than i intially thought against Wlad, but he got shutout because styles make fights. Haye spent the night trying to finish things with one big overhand right counter. You can't beat Wlad with just one big bomb, he is better than that. Wlad is probably the most difficult great champion to counter in history, he's a master at being a saftey-first, superheavy boxer-puncher, he doesn't give you anymore openinings to counter than the absolute minimum, because he's so cautious & calculated in his careful strategic boxing.

David Haye has power & speed, but as a counter-puncher, he doesn't ever beat Wlad. It was too late in Haye's career to suddenly change styles, & Haye is very uncomfortable with leading with bombs, which is what is needed to stop Wlad. Perhaps if Haye had gotten with Freddie Roach in '08, & been taught more effective aggression, as in leading with bombs rather than countering, & using combinations... then he would've had a better chance at dethroning Wlad. However, in that case i see Steward urging Wlad to "GET THAT MOTHER****ER OUT OF THERE!", so i would still favour Wlad, because as he showed in the past, he could be pretty devastating when he let his hands go with bombs in bunches.

 

We'll really never know for sure, but I think it would have made it worse for Haye. If you are moving backwards when you fight, you aren't fighting, you're fleeing. David Haye spent most of the fight fleeing. And by doing so he avoided a lot of punishment. The flipside is that if he had shown more courage, Wlad would have had more openings to exploit and Haye could have been floored.

 

Holy **** , you are shameless!atsch

 

I had only seen Haye vs some cruiser for a round..then vs Valuof and then vs Fraudly.

But I'd expected a few jab attempts a couple of double jabs to get in...even if nothing came of it it puts Wlad in a more back position rather than leaning forward. winning Haye a few valuable inches.

He don't seem to have the basic skills of a double jab, or a hook off a jab...I don't know if he can jab and throw a right cross.

He seems to 'hook' with both hands. As I've said before the fight....a haymaker is the slowest punch there is...it starts further back in the stance than a sweeping hook, and an over head right is also a slow punch. It can be effective vs certain styles, like Ali or Vitalie's low left.

Yes he can throw them quick. Those punches were John Wayned...they always are.

But a half an eye blink is the difference between the best and a very good fighter.


Balance is having your foot in the "center of balance...of the foot/with in body balance"...with it 'flat, even if on the toes'. The weight must be 'flat' not on the inside or the outside of the foot, so it can be lifted 'now'.
Not in a quarter of a second as the foot rolls back to center from the inside or out side.

You can not lift you foot if the foot is not on the foot's centerline with in body balance. If the weight is resting on the out side or the inside, you can not lift it until you have returned to your foot's center line of balance.

If you are in balance you can start shifting as the punch starts. Wlad was and stayed in balance all night long, except for some missed heavy early hooks.
He refused to over extend....not only is the jab shoved out there too long for a shoulder whip to start it back when over extended, but body balance is off, there for the feet can't move until the body come with in balance.

Haye was counting on a steamed up Wlad trying to punish him and over extend and hinder his balance.
That was Plan A...there was not jab in...no doulbe jab or jab and hook....no plan B...or if he had one...Wlad took it away fast and easy....by being faster at getting out of Dodge than expected.

I thought Haye should have tried to Jab his way in, every once in a while to keep from being predictable. He did jab his way in once and didn't know what to do with it.

I immagine if Wlad was standing in a more neutural balance of a Lewis or a Holms he'd be more fluid in getting out of the way...he is more forward in his balance than they are, but his feet are centered, which is why he can move his feet quickly.

He is on the front of his balance zone, and has to move further, and with that mometum, it's harder to side step.
A few times he was in a more up right center balanced position to side step and did so.

Wlad's jab is quicker and hard, but his brother's got a better power jab because he's stepping into it. Vittalie's is more step/throw...getting more of his moving weight into it.

Wlad's is more good planted foot ...step, and jab with the weight going forward from the hip That is why Wlad has better balance than his brother.

Vittalie has more the Liston power Jab.

 

Courage is part of ability IMO

 

Even if he had the style, speed and power, he didn't have the boxing acumen. In other words, he doesn't know how to box. He just leaped and lunged and fell down. The fact that he also fought scared only made it easier for Wlad, but David Haye is a **** fighter.

 

He was too scared of getting Ko'd to open up and do what he wanted to do.

 

what about the pinky toe man ?

Dont forget that one little piggy Haye couldnt wiggle .

 

Better chance if he went for speed rather than pot shoting.

He is a knockout fighter or lose unless he is in with a guy way more limited in skills. His style under performs, it is knockout or lose against good fighters.

Those of us who thought he could beat Wladimir were guessing on Wladimir's chin not holding up. I think you will find very few haye fans thought he would win on points, even if it was in England with a ref favouring his style.

He does not lack courage, using your chin to lure people in is hardly for a coward.

If he had went for speed he would not have spent rounds 6-11 gassing hoping for a luck shot.

Haye actual has the reflexs, the power and the conditioning to beat Wladimir. What he lacks is the right approach. He has like wladimir no inside game, very poor work rate when pot shoting. No ability really to lead. His game is ambush.

To teach him to fight on the inside at this stage of his career would be difficult. Also you would have to teach his mind, he would have less time to think. His present style he gets on his bike works out what to do next and darts in again. He would have to rely on his instinct more, which might not be a bad thing as he does slip punches well.

Looking for one big shot with every punch is very tiring. He has switch to speed before and it has worked for him. However it was still only in bursts, he might add 50% to his workrate doing this the entire fight. He would still be short on out working guys not fat though.

He trains like a sprinter not a middle distant runner. If he went for speed instead of throwing power shots he would have troubled Wladimir a lot more. I still think unless he got Wladimir in serious trouble he would still be out worked.

It is disappointing Haye under performed, but accept for the perfect punch he would not beat Wladimir with his present style.

Mixing his counter punching with an offensive style may well work. I am not sure Haye physically has the lungs to ever be able to do it. It would take him at least three years say with roach to get his boxing worked out.

It is a big task for haye, he does have the ingredients to give it ago. It his engine I have the biggest doubts about.

 

He lacked courage even if he didn't have the ability to beat Wlad. You see, there are those who show bravery and courage in the face of defeat. What's really hard to understand is Haye's pre-fight antics mixed with his performance. That's what made it pathetic and embarrassing.

 

Haye doesn't have power at HW, which is why he ran all night long. Wlad's power had him scared to death.

 

He couldnt stand up to taking the shots he would need to take to beat Wlad, he was badly hurt in the fith round from one clean shot which forced him into survival mode imo

 

If he had the courage to partake in what said prior to the fight then yes. He should have went in there like a raging bull early, but he didn't.