Dempsey, Liston, Holyfield, Frazier.

Yeah, but who beat he during those days. Liston looks great on film and his wins over Patterson, Machen and Folley are very impressive. He should rank in the Top15/20 due to that. But honestly I can´t see how some people rank him in the Top10 or even Top5.

Nice, what fights are you planning to watch?

 

The Sharkey win is excellent on paper, but the controversy devalues it allot, like the poster who said it would be like giving Golota KO wins over Bowe, there were so many low blows too

Cleveland wasn't yet proven as he was avoided, on film he looks incredible though which I put allot of stock in and he'd go on to rack up quality wins past his prime. I'd say he achieved more than Firpo. Valdes was certainly well past his best, but so were Willard and Miske

 

No. Cleveland never beat a decent fighter who was rated.

Bob satterfeild was the first known fighter williams fought but that was in his 31st fight, and we know what happened there, dispite all the advantages. wiliams retired for 2 years to get over it.

In his comeback williams was nursed through 12 further low risk fights to build his confidence up before fighting the next decent fighter, who knocked him out.

Even when williams beat a young unranked terrell who was 24-3 to his 51-4 he lost the return within 12 months Terrell came of age and beat
foley, machen and chuvalo - guys williams never got past.


By comparison Firpo KOd willard amd brennan and had a ND/draw with wills.

 

There is no controversy IMO. Sharkey wasn´t intelligent enough to protect himself. His own fault. And no wins can´t be overturned by some individuals using rules of a latter time. That´s silly. Sorry.

He looks incredible against what opposition. Sorry I don´t buy in that kind of stuff. Williams was a never has been. A fringe contender at best. Firpo on the other hand was a real contender who beat better opposition.
Yeah, Willard was shot that´s one reason why I ank Liston´s title winning effort above Dempsey´s. Miske wasn´t shot though, Valdez was. Dempsey and Liston are very comparable, Liston barely ranks above him due to the Patterson wins.

 

Williams was what 20 and a late sub when Satterfield beat him. But a 23yo Terrell wasn't of age, no agenda hear ladies and gentlemen And who knows if the SD loss to Terrell and draw with Machen weren't in fact wins? We do know Wills beat Firpo, stop trying to twist it into a draw Willard was shot to pieces and Brennan was C Class

 

1. He was hit low about 20 times on a way to a loss, ofcourse it's controversal, it's breaking the rules, the ref ignored the rules. Without the low blows that KO would not have happened. Maybe it would have happened later in the fight or maybe

2. Against Liston for 1

3. Firpo was manufacted, he didn't beat anyone of note. Miske was literally dying of brights disease and had come back out of retirement because he was impoverished. Prime Miske outboxed Dempsey and Miske was still 23-1 to lose because he was dying

 

Dempsey
Holyfield
Liston
Frazier

But it was like picking between your kids.

 

Holy was the best performing heavyweight of the years '90, '93, '96 & '97 in my opinion.

Dempsey avoided 2/3 of the best possible title challengers (Greb & Wills), spent 3 years inactive while polishing his world title in Hollywood, then got whitewashed twice by the only great opponent he faced in Tunney. Why was Greb, who whupped Dempsey in sparring, deemed by him to be "too small" for a title shot, but the less deserving Carpentier was given one? PP is right when he says a Shot Johnson would've made a better win than anything on Dempsey's resume.

 

If Frazier had only fought Ali twice, & lost by a whitewash both times, then i could see that argument.

Liston's two demolition jobs of Patterson put his resume above Dempsey's. Maybe if Dempsey had been stripped of his title during his 3 year voluntary Hollywood layoff, & Tunney had gotten the vacant title & defended it, then Dempsey returned to beat him twice by KO1, then i'd agree there was a strong case for his resume being superior to Sonny's.

 

Brennan was better than williams by a long chalk.

williams sure was tall and muscular,looked great winning mismatches and losing against world level fighters, but he never made the grade or won his key fights. Took bad beatings against the champions he met, even ali bounced him around like a ball.

 

Well, Shot Cleveland Williams was a gunshot victim against Ali.

 

Yes he was. But i doubt you thought that at the time. That is why he was SO overshadowed and also why he was such a good value champion. Nobody expected evander to win so often or go on for as long because somebody else was always considederd a beter HW. Other champions were considered invincible. I gave him his dues at the time, he was the man to beat for those years but being the man to beat is not the same as being the best HW in the world.

yet he signed to meet wills and there wasn’t the demand for greb. wish they happened by the way, but it never stopped dempsey being unanimously regarded as the best HW in his own time. I mark him down for that but he is above the fighters in this group. its been an intresting thread!