Legends on film. Can we be honest in both parsing and critsing ... Joe Louis i

Mendoza,
The reason people keep saying "all fighters have flaws" is because you are saying Joe Louis would be in big trouble facing great fighters - because he had flaws.

It's simple.
All the great fighters showed flaws against lesser fighters, flaws that would figure to be more of a danger against fellow greats.
And that's the thing, pit Joe Louis against any of the greats and THEY would be exposed to greater danger, as much as he would.

 

I agree, Baer didn't jab much against Louis -- in the fights I've seen, he wasn't much of a jabber at all; he mostly used it as a pawing rangefinder as he zeroed in on the target for harder punches.

But he couldn't even target his pawing against Louis, and he didn't land too much of anything else, either. I attribute that to the fact that Louis was moving his head and feet, moving in and out of range and ducking punches in ways that we didn't see him do as champion. And I attribute that consciousness of defense to the apparent fact that Louis had more respect for Baer's ability than the vast majority of his challengers.

I'm not saying he wasn't worried or frustrated in later fights. He just wasn't worried enough or frustrated enough to think that he wouldn't just shrug off the other guy's punches and knock him out, no matter how bad things were getting. Sometimes, when hurt, he'd clinch while his head cleared. But what we almost always see from Louis is that even when hurt, he still thinks he's gonna just walk forward and kayo the other guy, even if that other guy lands his best shot. Look at his first fight with Buddy Baer. Baer clearly had the punch to blast Joe out of the ring, literally, but Louis never acted like he needed to do anything other than land his own power punches.

Yes, that's a flaw. But when you ask whether that kind of flaw is gonna show up as he faces better fighters, I say, "not necessarily," because he's shown the ability to fight differently. And he showed it when facing a better fighter. So just like I wouldn't expect a peak Ali to stand still against a monster and get hit with the punches Chuvalo and Cooper hit him with, and I can validate that expectation by seeing how well he avoided punches against Liston, I can do the same kind of analysis and not expect Louis to stand still against a monster and get hit with the punches Galento and Godoy hit him with, and I can validate that expectation by seeing how well he avoided punches against Baer.

I would not expect Louis to stand as still for George Foreman or Lennox Lewis as he did against Abe Simon or Buddy Baer.

 

I think If Louis fought Foreman when Ali did he would be prepared for that Foreman and be carefull not to get caught he would not take Foreman lightly, In a Liston fight I can see Joes quicker combo's and jab getting to Sonny, Louis would be prepared for that Liston, he may have to adjust to that Liston Jab but Joe was faster and he was no Cleveland Williams, Joe was top shelf, Frazier would proberly be a tougher test but Frazier would also be open to Joe L.s 2 fisted power...I am not saying they would be easy fights just that Louis had enough talent, power to be favored over all 3 and I think he would Ko all 3.

 

Tell that to Primo Carnera.

 

No argument there. I think Ali's the best all-time heavyweight head-to-head for those reasons, plus a few more.

I think Baer looks slower in the context of his time because the heavyweights were smaller and quicker on the average than the moderns. I think Tommy Loughran would make Foreman, the Klitschkos or Lewis look slow, too. But I don't think Max Schmeling was slow, and Baer was quick enough to outfight and eventually stop him.

So I don't quite discount Baer. I think he was a reasonable approximation of some of the advantages modern superheavys are thought to have in a head-to-head matchup against Louis. No, he's not as tall or as bulky as the biggest of the moderns. But I don't think he's slower than they are, and given his power and what we know about the Louis chin, he would have to have been considered just as likely a prospect as today's big guys to be able to land the big punch to take Joe out. Louis knew that, too, which is why he fought a different fight against Max than he did against the likes of Johnny Paycheck. No, I don't see him having the boxing ability to outpoint Larry Holmes. I just give him a better than even chance to repeat the Baer performance against a Foreman, Lewis or Klitschko: avoiding their bombs long enough to land his own.

I agree that since we haven't seen Louis change tactics in-fight (not that I can think of, anyway), we can't assume that he'd be able to do that. But I think the list of heavyweights who we've seen do that is pretty small. Again, it's a category where he can't equal Ali, but a whole lotta folks are in that same boat.

Defense-wise, I think Louis could defend well enough to avoid getting hit by many of the biggest of the usual suspects on the all-time great list. So while I don't expect his defense to be an asset against a Tunney, Ali or Holmes, I do think he's hitting Foreman or Lewis with a big shot before they get one in on him.

As for durability, I'm not sure I call him only average. If the gold standard of never being seriously hurt at heavyweight is somebody like George Chuvalo, then Louis can't compete. But most of the all-time great heavies have been hurt. When you see Louis on the floor against Braddock, Clay on the floor against Banks, or Holmes on the floor against Snipes, you know you're not looking at a Chuvalo. But if you're not completely invulnerable to power like Chuvalo, the next best thing is to be able to recuperate well. Clay was shaken by Doug Jones, but we know that he's way high up on the durability lists. Louis isn't an Ali, I don't think, but to me, the fact that he shook off so many instances of being hit hard means that he has to be given some credit for recuperative powers, and I'd put him above average in the durability sense. Put it this way: I don't think that the right hand Hasim Rahman landed on Lennox Lewis lands on Joe in the first place, but if it does, I think he gets up.

I'd expect Ali to outpoint Louis. I don't think Tunney was faster than Conn, and though I'd guess that he had a better chin, I don't think it would be enough better to survive if Louis got to him. I'd expect that to happen more quickly than it did against Conn. I think Holmes would give Louis plenty of trouble early, but even in Larry's prime, he tended to slow down, and ended up needing to outfight several of his opponents while relatively flatfooted in the late rounds. I don't think he beats Joe at that game.

Could Louis keep Marciano away and put enough hurt on him to avoid getting worn down in a war of attrition? I think so, but I certainly don't think it's a sure thing. I'd surely pay to see it, but I don't think I'd bet on it, and I'm a betting man.

I think a fast-starting swarmer with the foot speed to crowd Louis and one-punch kayo power would be a bad style matchup for Joe. If Mike Tyson is moving his head, I actually think he's one most likely to beat Joe to the landing of a fight-changing punch.

Yeah, I think we agree on what the risks for both sides would be, and what each would need to do to win. I think Holyfield's second fight with Bowe gives us some sense of how a relatively smaller heavy might attempt to counter the size and power of those bigger guys. Louis is by no means invincible, but I do see him as being capable of executing the same sort of fight plan -- with a lot more chance of one of his punches being decisive.

 

Just saw a bit of Max Bear v Louis. Boy was he shite. No footwork and low hands. He was waiting to be finished. Their movement was non-existant compared to many fighters, nevermind a peak Ali. Talk about static targets. That Ape Simon (Abe sorry) was pathetic. I though he was disabled the way he held his hands and tried to jab. Louis says, “Kill the body and the head will die”, Yeah Ali couldn't take a punch to the body. Gee you would need better tactics than that to beat him. Louis was great in close with great accurate combos but peak Ali wouldn't fight him in close. Watching Conn v Louis - he's nowhere near as fast on his feet than the Ali that fought Big Cat and Terrell. Conn is not in Ali's league. Take that into account - Louis hasn't much chance of winning against a peak Ali.

 

Do you know something else about boxing except your god Ali?

 

Hey i guess if Witherspoon and Norton would give Holmes such tough fights nearly outpointing him, then a strong pressure fighter like Frazeir and Marciano would definately get the job done. If Snipes could floor him, what would Louis do? This kind os stuff can be made of any fighter

 

Louis took harder punches than the one landed by Snipes and possibly ones similar to the one landed by Shavers.

The fact is that Louis fought more ranked contenders than any other heavyweight in history and not one managed to capitalize on his chin. If he had a chin like Oliver McCall it would not have changed the outcome of a single fight on his record.

It is highly doubtfull that anybody could have taken Louis out with a single punch including Shavers and I have yet to see concrete evidence that his chin could save sombody who couldnt beat him if he had a better one.

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Louis took some flush shots from Max Baer.

Would you put down money that anybody hit harder than Max Baer?

Max's brother Buddy was probably a man of Briggs like power.

Louis could shake off some real bombs.

 

The accusation behind Louis' supposedly less than par chin is unsubstantiated.

Joe's closely planted feet were the reason he was dropped when caught square-footed.

A more accurate, but less incriminating comment on Louis, would be that he did not always sport the best posture when fighting.