When would have been the perfect time for Ali to retire?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by evalistinho, Feb 25, 2009.

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  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I disagree that Ali added nothing to his legacy after Frazier. Young and Norton are nice names to have on your resume whoever you are. Becoming three times champion of the world is hardly "nothing" either. Shavers is probably the most incredible example of Ali's punch resistance.

    From the point of view of his health, he should have retired after Zaire.
     
    McGrain, Jan 23, 2012
    #46
  2. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    He already had norton on his resume and the rubber match was a robbery in my book.

    Beating young was a big positive as I stated, however I'm not sure he'd have missed his name that much had he retired before fighting him.

    3 times champion? Does anyone really consider the 2 fight series between him and spinks as relevant? Especially when the likes of norton and holmes were fighting each other?

    Shavers showed he had a good chin, but I'd argue he'd already displayed that quality against frazier, foreman, norton and and liston.

    So yeah in short, young aside he didn't really do much by staing on after frazier 3.
     
    lufcrazy, Jan 23, 2012
    #47
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    All those things mean something. They are not meaningless. Yes, having enough to comeback a third time and lift the title is relevant. Yes, being 2-1 with Norton is better than being 1-1. Yes, Young is a significant name on a resume. Yes, surviving the biggest right hand in history enhanced the reputation of his punch resistance.
     
    McGrain, Jan 23, 2012
    #48
  4. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Mean something yes, I'd just argue not much.

    2-1 against norton if you scored it that way, I didn't and losing the rubber certainly didn't enhance his legacy.

    Beatin leon spinks means pretty much jack ****, let's be honest, leon spinks. kid had potential and snorted it up his nose.

    He'd survived big shots against liston, norton, frazier and foreman; his chin rep was sealed long before shavers.

    So again, added a bit but not much and certainly not enough to split any hairs when ranking him.

    A millionaire can find a tenner on the street and it'll increase his wealth, but not significantly.

    The only thing significant post manilla is a scrappy victory over young whihc absolutely pales in comparison to his marquee victories (all attained before the young fight)
     
    lufcrazy, Jan 23, 2012
    #49
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, but he didn't lose the rubber match, whatever your card says.

    I'd say Shavers is the hardest puncher that ever hit him flush. Liston didn't land a flush bomb on his chin, and nor did Foreman. Frazier and Norton are not in Shaver's league as a puncher. Shavers is the hardest punch he ever took and proof positive that he could take flush bombs from enormous punchers.

    Leon Spinks isn't a great scalp by any means, but it means a damn sight more than "jack ****" because of what was at steak. There is a reason that finding the sack to anti up and reclaim your title at an advanced age way passed your prime is hugely admired in the industry - it's bloody hard. Not many people have done it regardless of the circumstances.

    I personally think that becoming three times champion is a bigger legacy sealer than beating Young, sucking up the huge bomb from Shavers is more iconic than anything he did in the drab fight against Young and that beating Norton means that he enjoys numeric superiority over every man he ever faced, which again, is more significant than his win over Young - although Young, as you've said, is a nice name.

    As to splitting hairs when ranking him, to some Louis is the clear #1 at this weight, so persumably for the people who have them absolutely neck and neck, going 2-1 rather than 1-1 with Norton, beating Young & Shavers and lifting the title for a record-breaking third time will be the difference between him being #1 and #2. So for that person, these wins are the most crucial in the history of the HW division ;)
     
    McGrain, Jan 23, 2012
    #50
  6. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Put it this way... Any "accomplishment" after Manila would have been a walk in the park before Manila. Surviving Shavers, beating Spinks, etc wasn't glory, it was nothing but glimmers of former glory. The cost of his post-Manila career far outweighed any benefit.
     
    Stonehands89, Jan 23, 2012
    #51
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Personally, I don't think Manilla is worth the cost to his health. He was already the Greatest at HW for me when he ditched Foreman.
     
    McGrain, Jan 23, 2012
    #52
  8. Lester1583

    Lester1583 Can you hear this? Full Member

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    This kind of performance adds nothing to Ali's legacy.

    If not taints it a little bit.
     
    Lester1583, Jan 23, 2012
    #53
  9. MagnaNasakki

    MagnaNasakki Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Getting one up on Norton is significant.

    Winning his title back? Its a really cool feather in his cap, and shows how brilliant his mind and heart were.

    Beating Shavers is actually a big deal. Dealing with Foreman rather easily earlier, and then managing to survive and one-up Shavers while shot pretty much proves, and I use the word proves as in "made fact" that Ali at his peak has very little to fear from any puncher in heavyweight history. In a H2H sense this is extremely significant; Ali fought 3 of the best 5 punchers in history and was never floored by any of them.

    He was already the GOAT, but after Manila, he did accomplish some pretty tidy things. I agree with McGrain in that his wins over Norton and Shavers, for me, help him edge Louis in ranking.
     
    MagnaNasakki, Jan 23, 2012
    #54
  10. Bill Butcher

    Bill Butcher Erik`El Terrible`Morales Full Member

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    Legacy wise - after Spinks 2, perfect ending for the greatest of fighters, those last 2 comeback fights vs Holmes & Berbick were pointless as can be... to be fair tho, nobody really acknowledges them when ranking Ali`s greatness.

    Physical damage wise - any time before the thrilla.
     
    Bill Butcher, Jan 23, 2012
    #55
  11. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Well when giving my opinion on a fighter I include my opinion of his fights an I can't see how anyone can view that rubber as a legacy improvement.

    Maybe, maybe not, his chin was already seen as secure and didn't have a question mark imo.

    Nah plenty of people beat spinks. Now had he fought the winner of norton and holmes and won i'd be more impressed.

    Numeric supremacy shumeric supremacy. Numerically pea never beat chavez.

    Anyone thinking a win over leon or a gift over norton is enough to move ali above joe is bat**** crazy.
     
    lufcrazy, Jan 23, 2012
    #56
  12. Bill Butcher

    Bill Butcher Erik`El Terrible`Morales Full Member

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    Good post
     
    Bill Butcher, Jan 23, 2012
    #57
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Anyone who scores it close enough for it to be reasonable for Ali to take it has to see it as a legacy improvement - it's a past-prime great beating a top 30 all time HW.

    As Magna said, it's an enhancer for his h2h credentials. There's a difference between his chin being "secure" and knowing he can swallow a flush-bomb from boxing's hardest puncher.

    But not many people are the three time HW champion of the world. As i've already said, it's not about Spinks, it's about the third title fight, and if you tried to tell a pro fighter this was worth "jack ****" you'd be laughed out of the room.

    Something that totally tortures him to this day.

    This is deliberately obtuse. It's not a a "win over Leon" it's a legacy enhancing third title. It's not "a gift over Norton" to everyone and you're excluding wins over Shavers and Young from this sentence.

    Anyone who has it very very close in favour of Ali over Louis would presumably have to move him to second if Ali suddenly had these wins drop off his resume.
     
    McGrain, Jan 23, 2012
    #58
  14. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Sure, but had there been no Ali-Frazier III, how many would unequivocally assert that he was Frazier's master? They would've been 1-1 and Frazier's win was the clearer one, and the more important one.
     
    Stonehands89, Jan 23, 2012
    #59
  15. ripcity

    ripcity Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    After his bout with Earnie Shavers. At least in terms of his greatness Ali would have been 55-2. As far as his health goes I'd say after Foreman.
     
    ripcity, Jan 23, 2012
    #60
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