Sonny Liston's resume

You make some good points. I don't particularly consider the era to be exceptional, although I do think its a solid division with very few fighters he didn't meet in the ring and for the most part make minced meat out of. Williams (x2), Folley, Harris and Machen were all capable of beating eachother, but all very good wins and none of them came particularly close to beating Sonny. I actually like that he took the UD over Machen or else people would be saying his stamina was unproven over the distance against rated opposition.

 

:good

I know you aren't particularly fond of the theoretical/subjective H2H category luf, but to put it in comparable terms: How you feel about Tommy Hearns @ 147 is my feeling about Liston at Heavyweight. Sure, others beat better fighters and they both lost against the best fighter they got into the ring. Both of those fighters can be argued #1-2 or #2-3 respectively all-time, divisionally (Ali & Leonard). Liston was getting on in age and hadn't seen much ring time over the several most recent years while Hearns was right on the cusp of outgrowing the division and came in a little bit drained.

Liston physically, was one of the most unique specimens of all-time. A relatively shorter and stocky ATG Heavyweight but with the complete opposite of a reach disadvantage that usually accompanies the body type. In fact, it's tied for the second longest in division history and no doubt a catalyst for arguably the best jab in division history as well. For as widely as he's classified as being a brawler type (which he could do plenty fine), his boxing skills are underrated. Not the fastest fists, but in all likelihood the largest (15" around). And legit KO power in both, especially a crushing left hook and the ability to put together murderous combinations. Granite chin too.

It's tough to imagine Liston failing to give most ATG HWs the fight of their lives, if not winning outright. He had the tools and weapons at his disposal to conquer a variety of styles.

 

So you have Marciano at number 10 then? could i see your list?

 

the best fighters Liston beat :

Zora Folley
Eddie Machen
Floyd Patterson
Cleveland Williams


that's not too shabby. i'm not sure he has enough depth in his resume to really put him high on an all-time list.
especially when you look at how bad he was twice against Ali.

 

is the liston vs valdes fight available on film?

 

A top 10 spot is fair, but top 5 is pushing it.

 

I completely agree. I think only ali and louis would beat liston throughout history.

He's in my top 3 h2h list but when weighing up the whole greatness consideration it plays no part.

However I do consider how good a man looks (no homo) on film. However that still ranks below resume and achievement.

Whilst I think, for example, liston would beat holy and does look better in his destruction of patterson than holy ever did. But holy has a better resume, ruled the division (in a premiere sense) for longer and the intangibles are in his favour also (smaller man, great post prime career etc.) So altogether I just can't place him above holy who's like my top ten gatekeeper.

 

I could definitely see that. I tend to combine all three of those aspects along with skills/ability although that is sort of what makes H2H itself, and that's how he finds himself in my Top 5.

 

Up to 1964 Ali, there were very few heavyweights who weren't scared sh!tless when they fought Liston.

Even Ali said Liston was a very scary man.

 

He doesn't seem like the type that would adopt a young boy from Sweden does he? Sonny's power, ability and intimidation in the ring were all very real. No doubt he busted people's heads open in the street. But overall, I think he was very misunderstood and treated unfairly, both by the politics of the sport and general life. He's a tragic figure.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6OJkxv1pyM&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6OJkxv1pyM&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/ame]

 

I wouldn't say his skills were "superb" - they were solid, but his physical attributes often compensated for deficits in his technique. For example, he didn't really cut off the ring in a technically correct sense, but his sheer size made him difficult for much smaller fighters to outbox him. His loss to Ali showed that his own jab was largely ineffective against a more comparably-sized boxer, despite his vaunted reach advantage.

Neither of these statements are accurate. Liston turned down over $100,000 to fight Johansson at one point (a career high payday for him at that time) and Lavorante pushed for a fight with him as well. He also missed out on Bob Cleroux, who was also rated in the top 5 around that time. Henry Cooper has openly admitted that he wanted no part of Liston, but otherwise Liston turned down or bypassed potential matchups just like virtually every other fighter does on the way up.

 

In general sense, that was probably a bit of an exaggeration. For being widely classified as a brawler and general brute, I think his skills are quite good and underrated. His loss to Ali shows that he probably never beats Ali, although he was visibly slower and a few years out of his peak, against the arguable GOAT mind you.

Were you there? Or what time specific period? I believe he was offered around $125,000 in 1961, but I don't get too enamored with that type of stuff. I like watching fights. Serious question, not being an ass.

Liston was admittedly inactive in 1961 for the most part, having put in the work to achieve No. 1 contender status based on his gauntlet run of 1958-60. In the meantime, public pressure was mounting on Patterson to meet him in the ring. Consequently, this is also the same time Lavorante and Cleroux became rated fighters. There are also articles that have Johansson being offered as much as $1 MILLION circa 1962-63. Do you really believe he avoided Ingemar?

November 10, 1962: Johansson wants shot at Liston, But Later On
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...BAJ&pg=4384,3758451&dq=liston-johansson&hl=en

August 24, 1963: Liston considers Johansson fight
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...BAJ&pg=2882,3850148&dq=liston-johansson&hl=en

 

His resume is pretty damn good. His 60-64 stint as premiere hw is also pretty damn good. His peak performance on film is arguably the third best in the divisions history.

Top 15 lock with his place under review. Him, wlad, dempsey, rocky and holyfield are currently battling it out for places 9 and 10 in my list.

 

Wlad sucks.

 

1960 was a great year but Listons 1961-64 form was about 13 mins of action against fighters who did not hit him back. He was the best heavyweight around, no question, but patterson was a no show both times, westphal and king were anybodys cannon fodder. Before clay, Listons last competative fight was machen an albeit important win but by no means sensational.