Sorry i couldnt get in on this sooner, right after i made the thread i had to rush off to a lecture. I have been thinking about it and the 4 guys i would give the closest shot at beating Monzon or giving him the closest fight would be: Roy Jones Jr- I see his chances as minimal over 15 rounds but over 12 if Monzons work rate was low in the opening rounds i would imagine the score cards to be close with neither really dominating each other. I would guess the earlier rounds although Jones would be winning them to be fairly close where a the later rounds to be fairly wide to Monzon so although as a whole Monzon would have looked better and looked the winner Jones would have banked points early on. It would be interesting to see Monzons expert timing against some one like Jones. I would have Monzon a huge favorite over 15. Hagler- Monzon v Hagler is a funny one for me because i think Hagler gives Monzon a closer fight than any other MW in history but this does not necessarily translate to me giving him the best chance to beat Monzon. I can see a close fight with Haglers pressure vs Monzons controlling of the pace and jab ( If Hagler tried to box i think Monzon would make him look a fool) but i still see Monzon taking most of the closely fought rounds because i think rather than Hagler looking the boss by applying pressure i think Monzon would look like the man in control of the fight moving, timing and jabbing Hagler as well as landing some heaving right hands. Sugar Ray Robinson- As has been mentioned Robinson has the speed to beat Monzon to the punch but i have always thought Monzons timing and ring IQ would be enough vs Robinsons speed. Robinson could win this fight with a super high work rate paired with hsi speed but as both fighters were 15 round fighters i think the high work rate would be detrimental to Robinson and Monzon could even stop him late on. Wild Card Pick- Hearns- No one ever mentions Hearns vs Monzon but over 12 i think he has the ability to give Monzon a closer fight than any of the 3 above fighters. A rangey battle of the jabs and a bit of a chess match. I still favor Monzon to stop Hearns late in a 15 rounder and maybe even over 12, still a close fight and i wouldnt count Hearns out, his boxing ability is almost unrivaled.
As much as I admired the Hitman,I can't see him beating Monzon. Hearns would build up a solid early lead,but Carlos would eventually break him down and stop him before the fifteenth. We're talking about,arguably,the best middleweight of all time versus,possibly the greatest 154 lb man,who was patchy at the middleweight limit.
For all of Monzons' genius I can't see him winning against a prime Jones. The man just had super human speed, reflexes and big punching power at Middleweight.
1. Because umm let me think, what happened in the rematch again and what was about to happen when Jones upped the tempo? Now let's look at performances against equal or better technicians in Reggie Johnson, Harding, Toney arguably 2 of those men beat Griffin. No doubt the jab and timing is key for Monzon, whether he get's it working is another matter. 2. Strawman arguments, Jones was untounchable for 10years of world championship boxing, Monzon is hardly a devastating puncher against similarly sized men 3. So you're banking on Monzon setting the perfect trap and landing the perfect counter punch. Monzon may have been able to make a 34yo 5'7 Napoles over reach, but a different ball game here though 4. Except he has a track record of doing just that against something like 15 world champions. It should be taken for granted that Jones is going to massively outland Monzon in clear punches early 5. You make a big deal out of Monzon's experience, all those fights don't necessarily make him more skilled or a better fighter. He was drawing with Briscoe in his 49th fight and he was said by Briscoe to have improved after that and he surely needed to, to compete at the top level. Tougher than all bar Hopkins? Well not many come much tougher than Toney, McCallum and Hill. How was Monzon bigger than McCallum given they had identical heights/reaches? 6. Now you're actually making a decent boxing argument. That Monzon's fundamentals MAY serve him better down the straight. Comparing it to Delahoya-Mayweather isn't realistic though, Jones is much better at slipping and countering jabs and beating a jabber to the punch and Monzon hasn't got 2 weight classes on Jones as DLH had over FMJ So as Jones pace slows the jab and fundamentals should start to take over?. In theory this is more of a possibility (if Monzon survives). But Jones does not fade significantly in any of his fights, he fights hard in the championship rounds, even in Tarver 1 where he is breathing through his mouth in the mid rounds and is faced with a big powerful southpaw 1-2, he adjusts and pulls out the championship rounds The evidence to say Jones would fade just isn't there. He actually usually turned up the pace in the championship rounds rather than faded. How many championship rounds (10-12) from 93-03 did he lose? Jones also has better conditioning and fought at a faster pace than Monzon 7. And in his 26th fight he dominated Toney and in his 21st dominated Hopkins. 8. Sometimes greats dominate other greats - Armstrong-Ross, Tyson-Spinks, Ali-Liston/Foreman, Patterson-Moore and Jones-Toney/Hopkins for that matter. Stylistically it could happen here 9. I'm not sure why Monzon is considered a 'killer', a quality ring general and technician no doubt, but not a killer? OK let's exclude wives for a moment 10. That's where we differ, I don't consider Monzon a tougher head to head challenge than Hopkins or Toney.
How about a fighter who beat (several times in some cases) Hall of Famers like Gene Tunney, Mickey Walker, Tommy Loughran, Maxie Rosenbloom, Mike Gibbons, Jack Dillon, Tommy Gibbons, Battling Levinsky, Kid Norfolk, Jimmy Slattery and Leo Houck? This content is protected
Although I rank him higher I think Marvin loses a close decision in a FOTY slugfest. Both granite jawed - Monzon vs Hagler wudda been awesome!! Harry Greb beats him by decision just like he does to every middleweight in history if it's prime vs prime. Sugar Ray Robinson probably does what he always does, loses to Monzon first then totally schools him in a rematch. BHop's defense and style would give Monzon hell, he probably wouldn't beat Monzon but he wouldn't make Carlos look good at all.
Tommy Hearns might give Monzon a close-ish boxing match :bbb, But lose most times IMO. Foreman Hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook!:smoke
Monzon's power seems to be often disparaged on here. He was a really heavy handed fighter imo.Debilitating clubbing power...he just didn't throw his hardest shots round after round and preferred to take things slow over the first third(which certain fighters may take advantage of).
Yes, I'm aware of this, and unlike you I'm not interested in dismissing an entire fight because it doesn't suit what I want to be true - that is, you are very very prepared to dismiss this as an "off night" for Jones whereas a very, very patchy technical analysis reveals something a bit different. The point, which was rather lost on you, was that Monzon occasionally getting beaten to the punch is about as relevant as Jones getting KTFO whenever a LHW hit him directly on the chin. But you're quite ready to jump all over it. Nor was Glen Johnson. Disingenuous, and given how ready you are to throw about "strawman argument accusation" cliches, pretty pitiful. Monzon made almost evenyone overeach, but because you are trying to colour an argument a certain way it boils down to "Monzon may have been able to make a 34yo 5'7 Napoles over reach". See why people find talking to you tiring and boring? This is a prime example. I think he would have an edge early. I don't think it's "taken for granted that Jones is going to massively outland Monzon", that is an absolutely ludicrous statement. Yes, they do, or they almost always do. If Monzon didn't get better whilst doing the thing he was doing he'd be almost unique in human experience. :huh I don't understand? He wasn't necessarily better because of experience but you present a quote here from Briscoe saying the fights made him better? Yeah, they do come a little tougher, like Monzon. How many of these guys did Jones KO by the way, whilst he was landing at will? He was bigger because he was bigger. As in bigger? As in he weighed in at a higher weight? A BIGGER weight? Is this really what you want to spend your time doing, making these pathetic asenine points and then complaining pitifully if I don't respond in full to each and every one of them? you're really not. I made a direct technical comparison, and saying the whole point of the comparison was that Mayweather successfully slipped those jabs. Size isn't the issue, the affect of the controlling jab on the moving fighter is the issue. He almost certainly will survive given that he never came close to being stopped in 100 fights, the only question is does Monzon catch Jones flush whilst Jones is boxing, can Jonse survive? I don't expect Jones to "Fade" at all, this is your point, not mine. I expect Monzon to shut him down, like he did in every other filmed fight, send him on the run, then time him and knock him out. I know. ok Now, I actually got you to ADMIT that Hopkins improved in an earlier conversation (which went exactly the same way ) so I'm not going through that again, Toney looked like **** and was horrifically weight drained. Jones did NOTHING to prove to me that he is ready for a top man at MW, and i'm convinced he never beat one - finally Toney was at 168. You think Jones dominates everyone He broke almost every man he shared a ring with. Class as always. That's why this conversation is over. That you actually considered the horrifically weight-drained Toney and green Hopkins better than Monzon is a full stop.
That's all I read :hi: Oh and Monzon wins because Mayweather backed up from Delahoya's jab Which of Monzon's shitty opponents was the best again?
I think Monzon would beat Lamotta convincingly but I think Jones is a cut above Monzon, though I'm not really sure how the fight would look. Characterisically noncommital of you
