If Ali had n't have got his hernia prior to liston rematch.

it depends on whether you think the return was a fix or not.i do pesonally but i don't believe liston would have ever beaten ali.
ali looked like he'd come from another planet he was that much different from old school sonny

 

It was November.
Il Duce has all the details.

Liston was apparently in great shape, but I reckon he was too far past his best, and Clay was just growing in confidence. Would have put up a better fight but Clay takes it on points, or perhaps cuts assuming its all on the level.

 

alltough i think highly of liston i think ali and holmes are the 2 fighters sonny would have never beaten.

 

MR. UN,,,,,thanks for the 'kudos'

Stevie G,,,,,November 16, 1964 Monday Night in the BOSTON GARDEN
Hernia on Friday Night, November 13

I posted some information on the Ali-Liston II 'Pre-Fight' heading.

Sonny Liston was down to 208 lbs. and Muhammad Ali was at 215 lbs.
Liston was in much better shape, but he was not quicker.
Ali, on the other hand, was physically bigger.

An interesting note. While preparing in Denver for this bout, late-July thru mid-October,
Liston had failed to knock down any of his sparring partners in sparring sessions.
He hurt them, but was never able to lay one out on the canvas.

On the Ali side, Chip Johnson, a pretty good hitter, knocked Ali down in a sparring session with an overhand right, 'right down Broadway' as Johnson stated.

 

I believe it would make much difference but still Ali wins it on points.
Liston was very determined, he was in great shape, he weighed 10 pounds less than in the first fight and it really broke him down when they told him that the fight is postponed.

 

You would imagine, mentally he was shot. More of being disgusted with the 'boxing game', politics and business end.
I do believe, like many others, that no one knows what would have happened in November, 1964.

The so-called experts, still had Liston a 9-5 favorite to win, even in
May, 1965.
The guys that would have known, in November 1964, were the sparring partners.
Leroy Green
Foneda Cox
Amos Lincoln
Francis 'Lee' Williams

All, pretty much said, Sonny could still be hit with the lead right over the top.
And they would try to get Sonny to throw the straight right to the body,
Ali's weakness, but he was to slow in 'pulling the trigger'.

 

If this match had taken place in actuality as originally scheduled, what are the chances that Ali's loses the title back to Liston as the result of a mid match hernia attack?

However, all things being equal, Liston simply wouldn't have had an answer for Ali's combination of height, reach and speed. The aging Sonny still would have also been at a dreadful deficit in competitive rounds fought over the previous few years. We know that Ali would have had no issues going the championship distance, as he'd shortly demonstrate with Chuvalo. Can we say the same for a competition deprived Liston, even at a trim 208? Sonny would no longer have enjoyed his usual advantage in intimidation. He'd have to earn this win, and I think that only happens if Ali's hernia strikes between the opening and final bell.

 

Wasn't this a hot button issue to Liston? He was ready to destroy Ali in a rematch, and the hernia screwed up Liston so much that he lost his interest in winning the match. Kinda like how the cut in Zaire pushed the Ali-Foreman fight back and messed with George a little bit. I swore there was a comment from Liston upon learning the fight will have to be pushed back; something like, "You screwed it all up boy..." and after that point the fight held little interest to him.

 

Mentally, it set Sonny Liston back.
Teddy King, his personal valet, had said that Sonny just wanted one more fight.
Beat Clay in Boston, and quit.
He had no interest in any more fighting.

Sonny had worked extremely hard for this fight, 3-months in the mountains of
Denver, a physical fitness instructor, training at a martial arts studio, and
3-weeks of intense training at the White Cliffs Country Club in Plymouth, Mass.

He was ready, and that would have been a great fight.
But the loss of time, $35,000 of his money, and 6 more months added on to his
aging body.
Too much of a toll.
Plus, the headache of new management, owed money from not only the Miami fight, but still awaiting funds from the Patterson II fight.
Now get ready for a re-scheduled fight, then moved to Lewiston, Maine just 17-days before the fight at the Boston Garden.
Alot of issues for a man to handle.

 

Nonsense, Liston was ready, put sparing partners in the hospital. THATS A FACT. If you think joe frazier was determined, Sonny was super determined. He wanted to kill clay not just beat him. all this reworked history. I remember it like yesterday. He was ready to go thirty rounds. People who are so called experts should really do there research. Liston was so angry about Clay. Jack McKinney and Jerry Isenberg picked Sonny to win back the title. So did Archie Moore. Ill take there opinion over so called experts. two writers were there, and Isenberg loved Ali. Archie Moore knew Ali well and all his moves. Liston took a direct hit from Cleveland Williams and did not flinch. He was in better shape THAN IN 1959. He worked on his agility Archie Moore said any time after the seventh round. And by the way I have been a Liston fan since I was 8 years old in 1964. There are many other people who "know alot about Sonny Liston" There is not just one so called expert who gives alot of speculation, and very little fact. This was a person Liston who felt thing believe it or not. He was not a monster. Sonny wins the fight. Peroid.

 

Sports Illustrated archives might have an article on the postponement if searched.

 

I think the postponment was a big factor. Liston really got himself into fighting shape for the 2nd fight and was determined to vindicate himself. The problem was that at Sonny's age he couldn't start over again and recapture the form he obtained for the scheduled rematch. It gets harder to get it going again mentally and physically the older you get. Ali on the other hand had time on his side. When you're young you can bounce back a lot easier. I still think Ali would've won but it would've been a tougher fight. Bad luck for Sonny. He probably wished he had taken Ali more seriously the 1st time.

 

The better man wins, and that was always Ali, but Sonny would have probably been seriously ready to make an effort.

Ali would have had a competitive match on his hands, but he proved way more definitively over his career that he could thrive in that situation. He soaks up the pressure, slashes Sonny up, and whips his ass late. Whether Sonny stays in and upright or not is probably up to him.