School me on Dariusz Michalczewski ...

Whether you recognized Frazier as becoming champion when he beat Ellis or Ali, my point was the Lineage obviously wasn't broken because Frazier beat Ali to clear it up. The Ring still recognized Ali going in to the fight.

Yes, Holmes wasn't made champion by The Ring etc until he beat Ali.

Who and when?

I don't need any help here. Was Vasquez not a good fighter and 3-weight title holder? Are you saying he had a **** reign from 96-97 compared to the other title holders?

It's not perfect but most of the time the Lineal champion is a worthy champion.

Yes, they've got an official research org, old farts membership etc but some contributors to the site would sometimes disagree.

eh?

Yeah, along with the abc bull****, I partly blame The Ring for stopping the championship policy, then messing it up when they brought it back.

 

This joe guy has really limited knowledge about boxing. Seems to be using wiki as bases for his arguements.

The abc groups got in bed with many of the big time promoters and because of that those belts took on larger roles in boxing. Ring had nothing to do with that. As a result fighters themselves put less value on lineal titles. Now no one cares. In fact really the only time it comes up is in a jones vs dm debate. I don't hear people saying floyd has the edge over manny because he is the rightful lineal champion at welter.

 

:rofl:rofl:rofl

Pot kettle black.

 

Between Joe Calzaghe Roy Jones jr and Dariuz Michalczewski, the three have fought more bums then every single champion in all divisions of boxing combined.

 

Joe was worst of them really..

 

Larry Holmes, and I like Larry.

 

The truth is somewhere in between these comments imo.

 

Michalczewski is the guy would have beaten Roy Jones Junior, Roy knew it so he ducked him. end of story.
Michal. is one of the best LW of all time, better than Roy Jones without a doubt

 

Well if you consider the lineage flowing from ali to frazier does that mean you do not consider hart or burns to have ever been champion?

There is no logical way that a retired fighters should retain his crown imo.

Both paled in comparison to tyson.

I'm saying when hamed fought him at fw it was considered a cherry pick by hamed. Noone gave a toss about his lineal claim.

Well that's my point. To be the best you do not have to be a lineal claimant. Likewise being the lineal claimant does not mean you're the best.

When judging a fighter's worth, i'm not bothered about lineage, i'm bothered about how long they spent as the best in the division and who they beat whilst there.

Anyone disagreeing that garcia was the best in the division hasn't researched the time period.

Had the ring continued to aware their belt, the lineage would most likely have remained important and hence more people would likely have sought to have that claim.

Today every ring champion is the rightful best man in the division, the rightful lineal claimant. As long as the ring retains it's prestige, we should see people striving to be the ring's champ and the ring's number 1 ranked fighter.

 

Nah dm's resume is horrible. Joe's is just bad. However jones' is actually pretty good. The problem is people tend to make excuses to try and discredit jones.

Joe=jones, hopkins, kessler that's decent even if jones was a shell and a lot thought he lost to hopkins.

Jones=hopkins, toney, hill, tarver, mccallum, ruiz, malinga (who beat benn and was robbed vs eubank), reggie johnson, castro,

A lot of people think of jones resume as weak because of limited knowledge. For example a old fat castro pushed both jirov and gomez many many years after he was shut out by jones

 

There's no break unless it's bull**** about The Ring retaining their recognition of Ali even while he briefly retired before Frazier-Ellis. Hart & Burns were champion.

But neither were paper champs. A paper champ doesn't beat the recognized champion.

I wouldn't say it was seen as a cherry pick, as Hamed was going for all the other title holders to clean up at featherweight.

This has been done to death and agreed on before. "best" should also be banned in these debates.

It's true. Boxing was in dire need of The Ring title returning, and all the other boxing outlets recognizing the rightful champion. I still cannot believe that when The Ring brought the championship back they killed their title's credibility as the Lineal title straight away. They even admitted their mistake. It will be a while before that's forgotten.

Also, quote properly to make yourself clearer.

 

He kept it until he actually retired in 70. Once he retired frazier v ellis was for all the marbles.

A paper champ, for me, is when the lineal champion isn't the best out there. His championship status is just a paper one.

It was seen as a cherry pick though, he wouldn't fight espinosa.

If you don't like best, call it number 1, premiere fighter, top dog whatever.

Had the ring awarded dm, he would have been much more prestigious, got better fights and in the general media would have been proclaimed champion. In these circumstances jones would have no choice but to fight him if he wanted to be perceived as number 1.

I'm on my phone, i'll ensure I match paragraphs though.

As an aside, how do you feel about each ring champion now? Each is regarded as top of the division, each has the perception of true champion.

 

The Ring titles are all good now. My only issues with The Ring champions were the Vitali-Sanders winner becoming champion when Byrd was more accomplished and ranked higher than Sanders iirc.

The other one was Jones being declared champion after beating garbage man Glen Kelly, which left me outraged to this day. Surely that kind of controversy won't happen again though.

 

Dariusz was the man at that time, there were more money in USA back then so they simply stole belts from dariusz. Roy didn't take win from dariusz and was ducking him his entire career. RJJ was defending belts that should not belong to him in the first place.

 

Yeah vitali was 1, byrd was 2, sanders was 3. I think it was a rush to crown a new champ with lewis departing.

Well assuming the ring continues it's championship policy, and assuming the recognition increases in the media not only will we have situations like martinez retaining the prestige of being a champion, but eventually we'll have situations were the media are saying things like "cotto, to be a true champion, you need to fight alvarez, when's it gonna happen"

I like lineage as long as it's the actual goal, which now it's getting closer to becoming.

As for the past, let's just say i'm aware of very extensive research that's been done which should replace cbz and similar websites. Much more accurate and transparent.

But back to the thread subject, although dm was lineal champ, his stint at lhw was nowhere near say someone like foster or spinks.

It's more comparable to someone like levinsky in that he was top of the tree for a while but his prestige soon left enabling others to overtake in the eyes of the media and public.

I agree with you that all of this would have been avoided had the ring either continued their policy or awarded their belt to every lineal holder in 98.