Downplayed riddles : Cassius Clay / Muhammad Ali

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by frankenfrank, Oct 2, 2011.


  1. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

    13,965
    68
    Aug 18, 2009
    Testosterone is a PED .
    Don't u think that Ali's ability 2 cut and swell ppl so much might suggest on something ? like Cotto's face after Margachito ? like Billy Collins Jr. after Luis Resto ? most probably there r more ? And Ali & Dundee proved that they deserve all d suspicion in d world ? don't u think that d glove was torn by either : foreign substance put in it / initially torn 4 d sake of buying time / torn later 4 that purpose but d exposed wrapped fist underneath d glove might cut a man more than d glove itself even without d aid of foreign substance ? 2 much 4u isn't it ? 2 think .
     
  2. johnmaff36

    johnmaff36 Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,793
    578
    Nov 5, 2009
    I respect your opinion but if you are putting these guys above Ali then theres no point in debating this. I mean, Ike over Ali?? Jesus wept!! Plus all the fights you DO give him credit for were all ,arguably (for some), past prime. I just cant fathom your thinkin FF:huh
     
  3. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

    13,965
    68
    Aug 18, 2009
    4 h2h ability Ike may have a strong argument 2 being ranked higher than Ali , but usually i still rank Ali higher , maybe i should reconsider .
    In his prime Ali beat a literally shot Cleveland Williams , a really old Zora Folley (these 2 were never that good anyway) , did not beat a smallish Doug Jones , cheated big time vs Henry Cooper , did not beat George Chuvalo (got beat by Chuvalo) , that was prime Cautious Play . How can i give him credit 4 no 1 worthy win during his prime ? Liston #1 may have been a dive as well , and certainly not a bigger win than Byrd over Vitali . In Vitali's case we at least know that it was not a dive .
     
  4. Azzer85

    Azzer85 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    28,283
    469
    Mar 13, 2010
    Dude, have u heard the one about Purrity beating Ali? and Sanders beating Liston? Yep, Frankenfranks handiwork
     
  5. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

    13,965
    68
    Aug 18, 2009
    All d times he mentions this , i wonder if he could show me where i posted it , probably his interpretation of my reply 2 1 of these repeated claims of his , I can only say that if Henry Cooper did something , then a maybe slower , but rangier , more durable and harder hitting Puritty might pull out as well , but this is not something i initiated , only barely possibly a reply like this 2 1 of his repeated claims he raised here and won't find me d quote .

    Sanders vs Liston is hard 2 pick a winner in . Both were listed as having a 84" reach :yep , Sanders was much quicker especially with his hands , in reality i don't know which 1 of them had d longer reach but Sanders would have had d effective reach advantage 4 sure in addition 2 his extreme advantage in handspeed . And which left handed opponent Liston faced whom was similar 2 Sanders ? Terrell in sparring ? was Terrell as quick and offensive ?
    Sanders could just as well perfrom at least as good as Liston had against Liston's opponents . Could Liston do as good as Sanders vs his ? d only 1 he might have done better against is Rahman , and it's not like i claim i favor Liston against Rahman .
     
  6. Ali_

    Ali_ Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,952
    1
    Apr 27, 2012
    Ali is the Greatest.

    You want to take that away from him with your mouth and fingers don't you?

    [Thing said in this thread]

    'Liston wasn't that good (..Amazing..Ali and Liston fought twice..after losing to Ali both times..Liston goes on to win 14 consecutive matches including fights against Amon Lincoln, the two other Sonny's Moore and Jonhson.)' But he really wasnt that good? Wow.

    - 'Floyd was old with back problems (Really..?).'

    'Ali had 10 (six actually) extra seconds of a break between rounds. (they fought twice, problems with the rematch too?)' Whatever actually happened didn't seem to rub Cooper the wrong way, as he and Ali were good friends even across the waters and into their elderly age.

    'did not beat George Chuvalo (got beat by Chuvalo)' ~ Ive seen some Ali haters while reading around this board...But you are the first Ive ever seen make such a ridiculous and delusional statement. George deserves his credit for going the distance in the first fight, didn't fair as well later on in 72 against a more polished Ali. Chuvalo beat Ali? That's quite a delusional statement.



    Ali greatest of all time. Not because of just his record, work ethic, training, skill and commitment to the sport of boxing and good sportsmanship..but because the greatest fighters of his time all recognized him as such. You cant take away the respect the boxing greats have for the greatest of their sport, you cant take away his admiration in the eyes of friend and enemies. He is a motivational person for people inside and outside the ring, a cultural icon.

    Tell us why you really don't like him...
     
  7. Ali_

    Ali_ Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,952
    1
    Apr 27, 2012
    Double post.
     
  8. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

    13,965
    68
    Aug 18, 2009
    who pays u 2 type this **** ?
    u r not a good historian of d sport Laylah, d above and below prove
    it . demagogy usually works on ppl , but less on those who know their **** .

    all of which were world beaters , weren't they ?

    yes Laylah , rili .
    Floyd had n injured back in their 1st fight and was 37 in their rematch , and always undersized of course .

    this is a claim brought in this thread , but not by me . my strong belief/opinion is that d extra break Clay got was longer than 10 seconds .
    But supposing it was 6 seconds , it seems like u just admitted in your own way 2 Clay enjoying n extended break between rds , just when he needed 2 recover from d KD he suffered , what's your take on d smelling salts Dundee did not forget 2 bring in , just in case ?
    so good friends they were that when they met in d tyson vs holmes fight i believe , cooper had 2 pose 2 ali in order 4 ali would recognize him . cooper was not really good at world class during his own era , but was more than enough good 4 ali :yep
    u make it seem as if Ali managed or came close 2 stopping a 35 years old George Chuvalo in their rematch , which is far from being true .


    Right Liellah .
     
  9. devon

    devon Guest

    Honestly you can nitpick ANY fighters resume
     
  10. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

    7,054
    382
    Dec 19, 2009
    True... Ali was great. Some nights were better than others but at his best he was better than anyone he ever faced IMO. No doubt he was better than Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, Jimmy Young, Ernie Shavers, Leon Spinks, Trevor Berbick, Ken Norton... even George Foreman, Joe Frazier and Larry Holmes IMO

    Holyfield gets disrespected way too harsh by some. He won a SD vs, Qawi... but it was only his 12th pro fight... he stopped Qawi in 4 in their rematch. The man went undefeated for 8 years and went 10-0 (7) in World Title Fights during this stretch. He was Undisputed CW Champ and HW Champ. He went 4-0 (1) vs. Hall of Famers Qawi x2, Foreman, and Holmes during the undefeated stretch.

    His first loss was a great fight. It was very competitive and Bowe got away with countless lowblows and rough tactics. Bowe had a "Tokyo Douglas" type of performance but still could have lost had he had a point or two taken away because of lowblows and if the KD hadn't counted. They both landed punches after the bell several times. The knockdown? Bowe punched Holyfield in the back of the head at the base of the skull... I don't think it should have counted. Holyfield fought a much smarter fight in the rematch and outboxed Bowe.

    H2H/Prime vs. Prime? I have Ali, Holmes, Holyfield, and Foreman as my top 4.
     
  11. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

    13,965
    68
    Aug 18, 2009
    But can only do it this much with a selected few , at least out of those who r usually considered great .
     
  12. sauhund II

    sauhund II Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,511
    2,208
    Nov 8, 2008
    Disagree with Bowe / Holyfield 2....

    After initial success Holyfield started to fade and Bowe was coming on.....no surprise here, Holyfield was never a conditioning wonder at Heavyweight and Futch/Bowe knew that, the trick was to make him fight the entire round without his usual dancing on his toes moves to catch a breather. It worked the first time for Bowe and it would have worked again if the fanman would have never happened, Bowe was definitely getting momentum before.

    The fanman gave Holyfield his second wind and Bowe's wife collapsing ringside did certainly not enhance Bowe's focus...........even then, Holyfield still won only a razorthin decision..........IMO, without the fanman he would have lost.

    The key to beat Holyfield in his prime years was to make him fight full rounds, pressure him to retaliate /brawl and he never liked it to the body. Bowe did all of the above but it required major agression and a great chin., which Bowe coincidently had.

    Lewis should have had a much easier time with Holyfield but he knew his chin was not on Bowe's level and needed to play it safe, nevertheless he won both fights, the draw was total BS.
     
  13. NickHudson

    NickHudson Active Member Full Member

    894
    21
    Apr 13, 2007
    One of my favorite esb posts of all time!!

     
  14. cuchulain

    cuchulain Loyal Member Full Member

    37,066
    12,012
    Jan 6, 2007
    Welcome back !

    Haven't seen you post in a while.