Liston without Ali

Nice. My only question is ...would Sonny have been that active and that interested in constant training to have fought that many times in 65?

 

Exactly right. Sonny would have thought this and under estimated him also. Liston would have taken on the white contender as a big money tune up before fighting Frazier, not training very hard while Quarry comes in the best shape of his life and shocks the world. You know what Quarry does to big punchers, he takes Liston out inside 5 rounds.

 

What ruined Liston was lack of competition and real resistance after 1960. For great fighters once they have reached the point where they are as good as they are going to get there is about a four year window where they must stay active to fulfill a potential. Liston was about ready to start his 4 year plan in 1959-60. Pity was right after the machen fight it was cake walk after cake walk and Liston went soft. The Liston that clay beat still would have beat the rest of the top ten at that time but there was no room for a good championship win much after that point the way thing were going.. if there had been no patterson rematch with no Ali to defend against maybe Liston could have stayed sharp in 1963 against Doug Jones and with a machen rematch the ground that was lost with the patterson blow outs spread over two whole years could have stopped the rot somewhat. Remember there was already a wasted year before the first patterson fight where Liston beat unrated westphal and king. If there was no patterson return clause and patterson went off and had that good chuvalo win (like he did) a more confident floyd meeting Liston without the sence of forboding coming off a whitewash may have had a better chance in 65?

 

Probably not,,,,,,,,,,,,

In 1963,,,,,,after defeating Floyd Patterson for the 'second time',,

Sonny had planned to fight Harold Johnson in the late-Summer, and
then Ingemar Johannson near the end of 1963.

1964,,,,,,,,was Cassius Clay and Eddie Machen,,,,,,that was all he wanted.

 

Chuvalo was taylor made, unless he got stopped on cutts.

 

agree with the thought that over time, age, apathy and hubris would have been his undoing and someone unexpected would/could have done it.

tyson had no business losing to buster EVER...
curry had no business losing to honeyghan...
lewis had no business losing to rahman...

boxing is certainly not a sport you can sleepwalk through, even when you're one of the best heavyweights ever. though as much as i love chuvalo, he was never gonna get past that jab

 

We dont know that, I think a old off night Liston may have been upset by Chuvalo, it happens all the time.

Rahman was never suppose to get by Lewis's jab, but he did and knock out Lewis. Chuvalo did get by Ali's jab and gave him a pretty bad body beating in that 15 rounder(Ali still won, but still)

Chuvalo may have been a hard fight for Liston at that stage, perhaps in tone of Marciano vs a older Louis maybe?

 

Terrell- would fight to survive and probably last the distance, but lose.
Williams- get stopped early every time.
Chuvalo- would last the distance and lose.
Folley- better in their rematch but loses by somewhat close decision.
Frazier- stops Liston late.
Ellis- has his moments but gets stopped mid-late rounds.
Quarry- gets stopped in the mid-late rounds.
Machen- did well in their first fight and would do even better in the rematch, Machen in an upset decision!
Mildenberger, Spencer, and Bonavena get stopped.

 

Patterson III? Patterson manages to survive the early rounds and maybe even go the distance... but he'd lose.

 

Perhaps its the back to back first round knock out losses that clouds my judgement, but I really have a hard time seeing Patterson making it to round 2 imo.

 

Patterson was never, EVER so bad.

 

Hey, ya just never know.

Tim Witherspoon easily outboxed Bonecrusher Smith over the distance in their first fight. Smith KO1 Witherspoon in the rematch.

Brown KO4 Norris in the first fight, Norris W12 in the rematch.

Marciano KO13 Walcott in fight 1 (Walcott was ahead prior to the KO), Marciano KO1 Walcott in the rematch.

Walcott finally won the HW World Title in his 5th try.

Coetzee finally won a HW world title belt in his 3rd try.

Freddie Pendleton had 17 losses before finally winning a world title (his 3rd world title fight).

Honestly, Patterson would probably get stopped a 3rd time... but maybe, just maybe, Patterson could find a way to at least survive until the final bell vs. Liston in a 3rd try.

 

If history were to remove Clay. it might also remove the terrible accident befallen to Cleveland Williams, who was not the same clearly. A prime Williams should have the speed & skill to dethrone Liston at some point into his reign.

 

I understand your point but this one is a story all by itself.

Bonecrusher Smith couldnt beat Tim Witherspoon.

Terrible Tim wanted out of his contract with Don King.