Prime Calzaghe is a H2H Beast

:smoke

 

Veit was a **** intercontinental champ who fought noone. Anyone who believes otherwise is dreaming.

 

I don't have to mention specific dates though do I? I can do if you want, but that's not the point I was making.

My point was, Joe stayed at 168 and struggled to make weight fighting guys like Reid, Woodhall, Starie etc for decent money, when he could have moved upto 175, and made the weight easier, and fought bigger named fighters for more money, and at the end of the rainbow, was potentially a fight with Roy if he'd have done that.

That's all my point was. When you're as great as Joe was, why fight at 168, when 175 has better fighters, for more money? It's a fair question to ask.

Unfortunately for Joe, he seemed to be at his peak when the SMW had lost it's great fighters and excitement. When Benn, Eubank, Collins, Roy, Toney and Gerald were there, Joe was too young. Since he's retired, the guys in the Super Six have brought the division back to life so to speak. Ward, Froch, Dirrell, Kessler are good fighters. I think Joe would have had a great chance of winning the super 6.

All I'm saying is, why wait as long as he did to unify, when he could have moved up to 175 earlier? In my opinion, if he'd have won a belt at 175, and been a two weight world champ, that would have equaled, or even surpassed unifying the 168 division, under the circumstances.

I haven't missed Eubank, and Mitchell on purpose. I was just asking the question, of why he stayed at 168? when he could have had moved to 175 sooner? The longer he stayed at 168 in europe, the less chance he had of securing a fight with someone like Roy.

You've listed the names I've mentioned, and then you've stated who beat them etc. Again, you're missing the point.

I know who's beaten Griffin, Toney, Tarver etc, etc, my point was Joe could have made more money fighting those guys, and he'd have gotten more recognition. It's ok saying he beat Hopkins, who beat Tarver, yes that's a fair point, but he could have beaten Tarver himself, instead of fighting guys like Manfredo to gain U.S. exposure.

Now please answer my question.

You keep posting videos of Joe saying "I chased Roy for 5 or 6 years but he didn't want to know"

So tell me when this was?

Let's discuss it using facts, statements and logic, and you'll see for yourself that he was telling porkies.

In Sept 2002 after Woods, Roy's options were Joe, Tarver and possibly Ruiz. Late 2002 Murad Muhammad gave Roy the news he'd be waiting for. He said the Ruiz fight was on. So Roy at that point had a chance to fight for a version of the heavyweight title. So Roy didn't give Joe a seconds thought and proceded to fight Ruiz.

So Joe wanted Roy in 2002, but Roy opted for Ruiz instead.

In March 2003, Roy fought Ruiz. In Nov of that year, he came back to 175 and had a close fight with Tarver.

So Joe didn't chase Roy throughout 2003. Do you agree?

In 2004, because of their close first fight, they had a rematch in May. Tarver Knocked him out. Then in Sept Glen Johnson also knocked him out.

So Joe didn't chase Roy throughout any of 2004. Do you agree?

Now we know that in 2006, Joe said, that after his back to back knockout defeats, Roy was done, and a fight would be pointless.

So Joe's comments in 2006, meant that he had no desire whatsoever of fighting Roy in 2005 or 2006. So that rules out those two years. Do you agree?

Again, because of what Joe said in 2006, he obviously had no intention of fighting Roy in 2007. Do you agree?

In 2008, it was Roy who called out Joe, and Joe agreed. So Joe didn't chase him down in 2008 did he? Do you agree?

So from 2003-2008 Joe didn't chase a fight with Roy, even though they fought in Nov of 2008.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the links you've put up in the past, of Joe saying "we chased Roy for 5 or 6 years" are from 2008, I believe? Maybe I'm wrong, but it doesn't really matter what date he said it anyway. The point is, from 2003-2008 Joe didn't chase Roy.

So he must have been talking about from 2002 and earlier. Yes?

That means, that according to Joe, him and Frank tried to get Roy into the ring between 1997-2002. Now everybody knows that's complete bollocks!

It's absolutely laughable! We all know that Joe didn't chase Roy in 97, 98, 99, etc, etc.

Not even the most ardent fan can argue otherwise.

So the links you keep posting from time to time, show that Joe is full of ****!

If you believe him, please tell me what he did to get Roy in the ring in the late 90's.

It's completely ridiculous!

 

No, I'm sorry I can't counter the points, because it's completely absurd.

If you think Roy was the same in 2008, as what he was in 2000, then you're on mind bending drugs!

In 2000, Roy was 31 years old and was at the top of his game.

Late 2008, Roy was 9 weeks from being 40, and he'd lost his legs, his footspeed, his reflexes, his punch resistance, and his confidence.

He was still a good fighter, but he wasn't good enough to fight the elite guys at world level anymore.

The only similarity bewtween Roy of 2000, and Roy of 2008, was his name, and his fantastic physique that he always had.

I can post a picture of his Trinidad fight, and I can post a picture of his Telesco fight, and they would look pretty similar, but the two different versions of him are worlds apart.

Roy fought Hall in 2000, just a year after he fought Reggie Johnson.

So are we saying that there wasn't any difference between the version of Roy from Reggie in 99, to the version of Roy that fought Trinidad early 2008?

I could go on and on, it's mental!

You think Roy from 2001 against Gonzalez, or Roy from 2002 against Woods, was the same as Roy from the Hanshaw fight?

You're out of your goddamned mind! Ha!

 

greatest slap boxer ever...

 

No worries mate, take your time.

The way I see it (this is just my opinion), in the late 90's Calzaghe would not have stood much of a chance at all. I know he had an excellent win over Eubank, but Roy Jones is a different story, and Joe's early title defences were against poor opposition. You can't go from fighting Tocker Pudwill, and expect to beat Roy Jones! The fight would have been interesting around 2003, around the time Calzaghe had recorded very strong title defences over world class opposition like Reid, Mitchell and Brewer. Jones had slowed down to a degree by 2003, but was still considered the best fighter in the world, and was still in his prime (not peak). At this time, when Calzaghe was a viable opponent, Roy was looking at bigger things, like a £17m payday against Ruiz, and a chance to make history by winning the HW title, when he came back down he had to face his mandatory in Tarver, and the rest is history. Hence, in my opinion Jones-Calzaghe in their primes was never meant to happen, which is why I think it's harsh to hold it against either fighter, which is why I had to disagree with your original post. I think even if Joe had fought a couple of name opponents in America at this time, he still wouldn't have had the chance to face Roy before Ruiz, or Tarver, by which point why would you chase Roy as he'd suffered back to back KO losses?


Now, onto the issue of timelines, when you criticise Joe for saying 'I chased Roy for 5+years', you have a point, unless Joe is also talking around the time Jones was facing Tarver and Johnson.

To be fair, when Joe did fight Roy, he was coming off 3 consecutive wins, and had looked good against Trinidad. He wasn't the fighter he was, but he was still a good fighter in 2008. It's not a marquee win, but it's on a par with Roy beating the likes of Hill and Mccallum when he did.

Finally, I think you're a bit harsh on Joe, he did have struggles with Reid and Mitchell, but he won both fights decisively in my opinion. Roy is considered great, yet he had troubles with the likes of Montell Griffin and Eric Harding in his prime. Joe faced a variety of styles, and beat every opponent he faced, hence I think it's fair to describe him as a H2H nightmare. A southpaw with a fast 2 handed offence, iron chin, heart, top ring IQ, reflexes and excellent boxing skills. You even agreed that Joe is capable of beating every opponent Roy faced (possibly bar Ruiz), which includes Hopkins, Toney, Malinga, Tate, Griffin, R.Johnson, Tarver and other solid fighters, surely that constitutes his high rating H2H?

 

Pavlik was willing to move up to face Calzaghe who started making bizarre claims to get out of it and decided to fight a fighter he himself said was shot

Gone over this already. You clearly have not watched Liles-Mitchell and just because you beat Mitchell doesn't not mean you can beat Liles

Johnson was a solid fighter from around Woods I to Dawson II, much better than anyone Calzaghe faced at smw - lhw, which would explain why Calzaghe never faced him

Woods back then was a green contender. He really didn't come into his own until he faced Johnson for the IBF belt

Irrelevant.
It was a better fight for Calzaghe than the guys he was fighting at smw

How does this help you? So Calzaghe did not have to fight Tarver because he beat Jones, who had been beaten twice by Tarver and Hopkins who wouldn't move up to lhw until 2006?

I'm talking about when Jones was at his peak, not that guy who was 3-3 in his last 6 fights before facing Calzaghe

Stop boxrecing

Calzaghe could of fought him if he moved up to lhw earlier


All you have done is try to justify Calzaghe staying in a barren wasteland

 

Hi mate, great post!

Yes I agree with you, the window of opportunity for them to fight was really small. I think it would had to have been 99-2002.

The problem I have with Joe, is the victim card that he always plays. Now if he'd have said to reporters something like "Roy was great, I think I could have given him a hard fight, but our paths never really crossed, because we peaked at different times, and we fought at different weights" etc. I'd have nothing but respect for him. But you know, that he's never said anything like that.

He goes on soccer am, and tells journalists etc, that he was desperate for the fight, and Roy avoided him. His whole 5 or 6 year thing is complete nonsense. I've broke it down, and I've been fair. I haven't been biased, I've used facts, logic, and Joe's own statements. It was for Bailey's benefit really, because he's always posting the videos up.

Joe can't have been talking about the time Roy faced Tarver and Johnson. He couldn't have chased him after the first Tarver fight, because everyone wanted a rematch, and Glen Johnson fought Roy just three months after the Tarver rematch, in Sept. After Johnson, he's admitted that Roy was finished, and he didn't want to fight him. So he's talking nonsense.

Roy was coming off 3 consecutive wins. But Hanshaw and Amaju had fought nobody, and Tito was a former 147 fighter, who couldn't make the 170 catchweight, who hadn't fought in over 3 years. I don't think he looked that good against Tito. Roy was 40 and was 3-3, and he'd been knocked out badly more than 4 years earlier. But the main problem with the fight, is Joe's own comments from 2006. He said in 2006, the fight would be pointless. Then he took the fight two years later, and tried to backtrack on what he said. So him having said that, should mean that he doesn't deserve an ounce of credit for that win. Then afterwards, he called himself The legend killer. It was pathetic, and nobody can argue otherwise, given the circumstances.

Roy did have trouble with Griffin, but we know what happened in the end. The point I was making was, that If Joe was as great as Bailey and the others say he was, he wouldn't have had that much trouble with a guy like Reid.

Joe would have been capable of beating nearly all of Roy's opponents, but Hopkins and Toney, I'm not sure about. I can see him beating both of them, but I can also envisage him losing to both of them.

At the end of the day, Joe was a great fighter. I've got a ton of respect for him as a fighter, but not as a person. He didn't chase Roy for 5 or 6 years. If you break it down like I've done, he's either lying through his teeth, or he's talking about from 97-2002, in which case he's still lying. When Roy was unifying the division, Joe was fighting David Starie.

There's no way that Joe chased Roy in the 90's. Also, there's no way Frank was going to put Joe in the ring with a 28/29 year old version of Roy. He'd have never have done it. So my whole post, was to question Joe's ridiculous claims. He's lied and exaggerated to people.

I've always known he's lied, to protect his ego, but in the past few years, new things have come to light. Such as the whole Lacy incident, that left Frank absolutely fuming. Now if he was having second thoughts about fighting Lacy in 2006, and he tried to pull out, because his bottle had gone, how can we believe that he was desperate to fight a peak version of Roy in the late 90's/2000's.? If you think about it logically, you've got your answer.

He wanted to be paid the crown jewels, and everybody knew that nobody was going to pay it him. What promoter or network was going to pay him millions of pounds, when at the time of his statement, he was relatively unknown outside of europe? It's things like that, that annoy me. Then when he obviously doesn't get the crown jewels, he happily tells reporters, that he was desperate for the fight, but they wouldn't pay him enough. How convenient! The guy never did one thing to try and get Roy in the ring. So this tirade is in response to quotes and videos's of Joe talking bull****!

But he was a great fighter. But my list of facts, were in response to Bailey's facts, that made him sound better than SRR.

Thanks for your great post. Great debate!

Regards, Loudon.

 

Hi Loudon,

Thanks for the response

I agree with you in the regard that the 5-6 years figure doesn't make a lot of sense, I don't think Calzaghe wanted the fight in the 90's, he wouldn't have been ready. I see what you're saying, you're not accusing Joe of ducking Roy or 'waiting for him to get old', you find it irritating that he states he was chasing Roy for all these years when there's no solid evidence of it. That's fair enough, I think there was dialogue between the camps and maybe an offer or two was made, but you're right in that this does not constitute 'chasing a fight', though it should dispel the notion that Joe hid out and 'ducked these guys'. He called Hopkins out multiple times, and there were solid offers made from the Calzaghe camp to Hopkins, it was Bernard who didn't want it. I don't think even if Joe dropped his belt and moved up to LHW, and beat a couple of name Americans, that he would have got a fight with Roy.

Fighters often exaggerate things, it's what they all do. Joe does it, Froch does it, Roy does it and so does just about every fighter (or even athlete) ever. Fighters get written off all the time, Roy looked good against Trinidad and there was interest for the fight, which is shown by the money it generated, that's why it made sense. It's ironic that fans have issues with Joe fighting Roy when he did, but will happily name Mike Mccallum and Virgil Hill as name fighters that Roy beat.

My next point, is that it's also ironic that people bring up quotes from Frank ****** after he and Joe had split, where he says Joe held himself back. Read this quote from Frank,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot.../Joe-Calzaghe-eyes-up-Roy-Jones-jnr-bout.html

So people will choose when, and when not to believe Frank.


I think he called himself the legend killer after he beat Hopkins, it was probably more of a tongue in cheek comment.

Joe already beat Hopkins, and I think he would beat any version of Bernard. I don't understand why Toney is so highly rated at SMW or LHW, the guy did very little after he left the MW division, we've been over the poor level of opposition he faced at SMW, before being taken apart by Jones and never doing much until years later. He lost to the likes of Tiberi and Thadzi by simply being outworked, I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to think that Joe would beat him.

Joe may well have been looking for a fight with Roy around 2002, you say Joe was fighting the likes of Starie, who beat Clinton Woods who Roy was fighting at that time.

The point I made about Griffin is that all fighters no matter how great they are, will have struggles with lesser opposition, it's all about styles. Certain fighters have certain habits and styles that will trouble other fighters, even if they are clearly superior. Like you mentioned Calzaghe and Reid, Jones and Griffin, Lennox Lewis in his prime had troubles with the likes of Mavrovic, doesn't mean Lennox Lewis is a C level fighter.

The crown jewels is just Joe saying he'd want a huge payday to fight Roy, that's fair enough. Roy wouldn't fight Joe for peanuts, he'd also want the crown jewels.

All fighters blow their own trumpets and exaggerate things to protect their own ego, of course Joe has as well. I saw Froch state in an interview that he lost a close points decision to Ward, if he won one more round he would have beaten Ward. I couldn't believe that, I scored the fight 118-110 to Ward on first viewing, that wasn't a close fight at all!

By the way, did you see the Haye and Khan fights at the weekend? What did you think? Haye-Chisora lived up the hype, that was a really entertaining scrap, short but sweet with a decisive finish. I hope Vitali pulls out of fighting Charr, and makes the Haye fight. I saw the Khan highlights on the news following morning, he got careless and started over committing to his combinations. It was an excellent shot by Garcia that knocked Khan silly, after that he never recovered, though credit to him for sticking in there until the end. Where does Khan go now? He has some great attributes, but has glaring flaws that have been exposed in consecutive fights. I think he should leave Freddie Roach personally.

Regards

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWDtzdAYTOA[/ame]

Go to 6:35
"Roy Jones is past his best."

"Roy Jones was a great fighter, but he is not a great fighter anymore"

-Calzaghe shortly before the Hopkins fight

 

I always get a kick out of Joe Calslappy fans trying convince everyone how "great" a fighter he was, how he had a "great" record and that he would be a "Nightmare" H2H for anyone . . . lol.

The Truth is Joe was a Very good fighter and probably the best SMW ever, Primarily due to the length of his reign and he was the first to unify. Also, the SMW division is one of the newest, if not the newest division and no one really gave a **** about the weightclass, plus the WBO never meant **** until recent times. ANYONE who uses the statistics of the WBO before the Mid 90s and think that the SMW division was anything special historically DKSAB. These guys are fans of Calslappy and not boxing. The guy was a top 100 ATG (until Ward eclipses him as the Best SMW ever in the next couple of years) and is in no way deserving of such obsessive fanatic behavior

 

Zod,

Hi mate, there is literally nothing that anyone can say, to defend this.

It's laughable how people can't see straight through him.

He also said this in 2006.

Then we're supposed to give him credit for the 2008 win, because apparently Roy was back to his best, after having 3 great comeback wins. This is one of the reasons, I've got no respect for him as a person. I respect him as a fighter, but not as a person. The guy's a joke!

If he tried backing out of Lacy, and he pulled out of fighting Glen three times, are we really meant to believe, that he chased Roy for 5 or 6 years, and was desperate to fight him? It's laughable!

I can't wait to see Bailey's response to this video.

Regards, Loudon.

 

Knockout,

Hi mate, thanks for the reply.

It's not the fact that there's no solid evidence to support Joe's claims, it's the fact that there's crystal clear evidence to prove that he's bullshitting.

I don't deny that Frank made a few enquiries in and around 2002, but Joe's adament they chased him for 5 or 6 years. But what I can't understand is, If Joe was saying to Frank what he was saying to reporters, about wanting the crown jewels, surely Frank must have told him that it wouldn't have been possible?

I only used Starie as an example, because that's who he was fighting, when he was supposidly chasing Roy. It's irrelevant that Roy beat Woods. At the time Roy was beating Woods and the dinnerladies, he was the best fighter in the world, and was a three weight champ. I actually liked David Starie, and I liked Woodhall too. But fighting guys of that calibre at home, was never going to get Roy in the ring.

The only issue I have with Joe fighting Roy, is the statement he made in 2006, and the one in the video that Zod has just posted. He completely dismisses Roy, and then backtracks on what he said to cash in the chips. That's why he shouldn't get an ounce of credit for the win. Roy fighting Mike McCallum was completely different. Roy wanted the 175 belt that was vacant, and it was decided that Mike was going to be his opponent.

If Roy wanted the belt, he had to fight whoever was put in front of him. He didn't pick Mike to beat up on, he had to fight him. Roy would have fought anybody that night for that vacant belt. So I see your point, and that win over Mike should not be celebrated, but as I say the circumstances are completely different. Also in 1998, despite having lost to DM, Hill was still regarded as a top fighter, and HBO pushed for the fight.

Of course styles make fights. There's a few fighters that troubled Roy. But again, my point was referring to Joe been called a beast, and that he could beat almost anyone. So all I was doing was bringing the poster back down to earth. I've never once said Joe wasn't a great fighter, despite me not liking him, but on this forum, Roy seems to be underrated, and Joe the opposite. But that's only my opinion.

Getting back to the Crown Jewels comment, of course Roy wouldn't fight for peanuts. I don't even blame Joe for asking for them. My only issue, is that it was totally unrealistic on his part. Joe in 2001/2002 was not a well known fighter outside of europe. No promoter or tv network could pay him the silly amount that he wanted, because if they had have done, they'd have lost money. Roy vs Joe in the U.S. around that time, would not have been a huge fight. Not because Joe wasn't good enough, but because not many people knew who he was.

If I'd have been in Joe's shoes, I'd have wanted millions to fight Roy, but he couldn't expect to be paid it, when he was fighting the Veits of the world.

Regarding Toney, I can see what your saying, and we've discussed it before, it would have been a great fight. An earlier Hopkins fight would have been great. Joe would have had better hands, and Hopkins would have had more stamina, it would have been great. But Bernard took the **** in the negotiations, because he didn't respect Joe, and it was his name that would have sold the fight. I also suspect that he didn't fancy fighting at 168 back then.

The weekend fights were great. I thought Haye might get to Chisora later on. But I couldn't believe how slow Chisora was. That was a great finish by Haye though, and we'll have to see what happens next. Vitali isn't going to pull out of his fight, it's been arranged a long time. He's specifically arranged it for Sept, because he's running for government in Oct/Nov.

I have to be honest I was happy when Khan got knocked out. He needed a reality check. Garcia was great! I've no idea where he goes from here. The thing is, I think Freddie has improved him, so I don't know what's going to happen. Who else can he fight at 140? I don't think he could make 135 anymore, and 147 is probably the best division in boxing at the moment. He can gain weight and move up, but obviously they're going to be bigger and better fighters that he'd be facing, so I don't know what they can do with him?

Regards, Loudon.