Why not? My Top 50 All-Time P4P?

I think Monzon is much too low (should be top 12), Hearns and Jofre a little too high, J.C. Chavez too low, and Marciano really ought to be on the list.

 

Chavez is certainly not too low, neither is Monzon really(unless you mean in the sense that he should be ranked above Hagler and Hearns, in which case I agree). Hearns is a bit too high the way I see it.

 

Better than getting poleaxed by Tarver and Johnson tho. Remember Tarver thrashed Jones twice so your low rating of him (Tarver) impacts RJJ more than Hopkins. Hopkins flogged **** out of the pair of em.

But yes i get your hint, Jones was well past prime but so too was Hop.

 

That is one sensational list!!!!!

Things i applaud

SRR at numero uno

Ali being well inside the 10

SRL making the outskirts

Louis making the 10

Spinks, Hearns, Gomez and Chavez so highly lauded!

Nelson, Zarate and Benitez making the 50.

Well done mate.

 

I think he is. Multi-division titlist, 84-0 run, wins over the likes of Taylor, Rosario, Camacho, etc., never knocked down until his 90th professional fight, etc. That's special. I think he deserves to be in the top 20.

No, Monzon is just plain too low. He was arguably the most dominant champion ever, in any weight class. He was undefeated in his last 80 professional fights and 15+ years as a pro, was legitimate, linear world champion with 14 successful title defenses, all against legitimate opposition, never even came close to losing in his entire title reign, soundly defeated the likes of Griffith, Benvenuti, Briscoe, etc., and then- and this seals it for me- twice beat the young, dangerous heir to his throne while past his own prime before retiring. Monzon is top 12 of all time in my book.

 

That just proves to me that Jones has had a more rapid decline than what Hopkins has had, but I don't for a minute buy that those two (Tarver, and Johnson) could touch a prime Roy. I think a prime Roy would punish Johnson worse than Hopkins did, and a prime Roy would have easily handled Tarver. I value Roy's superiority to Hopkins in his prime (it was clearly evident for mine) much more than I value Hopkins' great but not THAT great prime and his longevity.

 

Fair enough, each to their own. I'm glad some believe Jones would have beaten Johnson and Tarver comfortably at his best and it wasn't a case of sudenly being found out. Not sure who i'd put higher, never got that deep but i am sure a case could be made for either.

 

Yeah, I don't really subscribe to the opinion that Tarver had the style to always trouble Roy, which many believe. I certainly don't think Johnson would have been any issue for Jones if he was on top of his game.

Just out of interest JT, how did you score Hopkins' two fights against Jermain Taylor and his fight with Winky Wright? How much do those perormances do to diminish or increase his standing in your eyes?

 

Thomas Hearns is shamefully high, the rest I will say is a fair list (if not one that I agree with).

 

Well i remember watching the first live thinking Taylor definitely won it. The second fight was close, maybe a draw and i thought he beat Winky narrowly. Considering he is way past it and doing good things when blokes like Roy and many others have long been ko'ed or retired i think they help him if anything. Taylor was the supposed heir apparent and they had two close fights, Hopkins isn't hurt here considering how ancient he is. Winky was a decent win and Tarver a very good one, he beat him easily.

As i say most were oft beat or retired at this stage, and that's not even speaking age. Jones ko'ed twice, Monzon retired, Hagler beaten by a natural welter, Spinks long gone, Holmes being beaten by Spinks, Tyson well beaten etc.

Hopkins longevity is unbelievable in modern boxing and surely helps his status. He's probably in the enviable postion of having everything to gain and little to lose at this stage of his career if you follow. Post Taylor it's all icing on the cake.

 

Interesting and solid; I have Georges Carpentier; Joe Gans; Pancho Villa; Johnny Kilbane; Jack Johnson; Maxie Rosenbloom; Ike Williams; Manuel Ortiz and Pascual Perez in there.

Nelson (#52); Benitez (66); Loche (78); Chang and Basillio (Outside top 100); Tiger (91); Olivares (51); Ortiz (96); Loi (outside top 100); Pryor (73); Sanchez (70); Harada (outside top 100) outside the top 50.

 

Fair points.

Incidentally I too had Taylor winning the first fight and had the second fight a draw, which is kind of weird because most think that the second fight was the one Taylor actually definitively won. I don't see that myself. I had the Wright fight even but I wouldn't argue wiht anyone that had Bernard taking a close points decision. I thought he looked fairly average in all three fights, but as you say, he is ancient and all things considered they were credible performances. Agree also that its all gravy from here on in.

Got a prediction for the Calzaghe fight? That would be a great win if Bernard can do it. I don't think he will unless Joe shows some serious declin, which might happen actually, for Calzaghe is getting up there in years himself. So I'm not counting Bernard out totally.

 

I didn't realise Ike Williams was missing.

That changes everything.

 

Fair calls all round SS, glad we agree but we mostly do anways.

Personally i think Caz's speed might be the answer to Bernards waning age. The X factor is Hopkins brilliant mind and adaptive abilities - can he somehow find a way to cancel out Caz's undoubted advantages at this stage of his career? Caz is one helluva fighter. I see a Caz UD but hope Hopkins has something up his sleeve to make things open.