please... btw, Foreman ranked Lyle among the hardest punchers he faced http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JmG_gR576EA
I agree.. Norton was turning up the heat in the mid to late 70's and starting to put together some good wins, while Joe was declining fast. These two guys also sparred under the same training umbrella and Norton probably knew Joe better than anyone, including Muhammad Ali. Frazier no longer had the handspeed or the drive to launch relentless attacks on Ken, and nor did he have the size or power that Shavers and Foreman used to walk Norton down.. Prime for Prime Joe takes this one, but if the time frame is 1975 onward, then its not a prime for prime match.
Well yeah, when someone drops you on your ass twice, it would be pretty embarrassing to tell the press that he was a feather fist. But nevertheless I agree that Lyle had more power than Muhammad Ali, which to suggest otherwise is ridiculous, even though I think Lyle's power is overrated, as is Norton's.
Lyle was a huge right hand puncher. First thing is Norton can't move side to side or at least he could not do this for very long. The Norton jab although effective vs Ali would not hold off Frazier....at all. So Norton jabs to keep Joe off him but finds Joe easily moves inside his jab. Ken starts trading and is hit with Fraziers shorter, quicker hook and goes down. Fight s over soon after. Frazier by ko within 6 rounds prime vs prime. Older Frazier takes longer but result s the same.
I would say that he was a "servicable" puncher, but not necessarily world class in that department. Most of his best wins went the distance, while many of his KO's were against less durable opponents. And some of the power from his shots was also provided by his opponents as they walked into them. Not saying the man couldn't crack, as he definitely could.. But calling him a "huge" puncher is being generous.
Does anyone think that Norton's crablike defense and stance might pose some problems for Frazier to land cleanly and often?
I grew up in the 70's and watched all of Lyles fights that were televised and watched his career closely. He was one of my fav fighters during that time. Lyle was a boxer puncher with a huge right hand. He developed his power punching the walls of his jail cell while incarcerated.
No nor tons defense made it tough for Ali but Joe would walk though him. To beat Frazier you had to be able to out punch him....ala Foreman or move and outbox him ala Ali. You can't be imobile and not be able to overpower Frazier and expect to last long.
What about a guy like Oscar Bonavena who was 5' 10", weighed under 200 lbs, had a crablike stance, and took Frazier the distance twice, even dropping him twice in one of their fights? Sure he lost both of those matches, but he didn't do anything like what foremen or ali did, and yet I thin he lasted pretty long.
I agree with the masses here. I like Frazier in 74 by UD or late TKO, and Norton in 76 by SD. A more intriguing fight would have been Norton-Lyle. Norton had more skill, but Lyle's power would have given him problems. Some people say Ken had a glass jaw, I disagree with that, but once he was hurt, he didn't recover well, and that would have given Lyle a real chance. Ron has to be considered one of the best HW's to never win a belt, and a truly fearless fighter.
Nope. That style is wide open for left hooks. What it is effective at is slipping right hands. Joe only threw body punches with that right hand, he was no headhunter. It's the left hook that's the big problem though. He's leaning into it and his arm is crossed so he can hardly deflect it and that head is right there. When he lifts that right hand up, his whole ribcage is open. And Joe is backing Kenny up and Ken's footwork is coming into play and he is not preventing Joe from winging away with left hooks if he's retreating. And if Joe is firing off 30 left hooks a round, norton gets hit and now he has to absorb. And I like Joe to land his lefthook on the outside on this guy anyway because Kenny threw that wide looping right hand lead to the body all the time. Joe beats him to the punch or at the same time. and Frazier was the breed of guy that actually would fire punches at the same time as his opponent and not play defense. The guy's that play defense are what Norton needs when doing that, not a trader. That was a long and looping punch and Ken doesn't have the whiskers against the hitters to get hit clean like that.
Norton did as well, if not better than Frazier did... in 3 fights vs. Ali. Both beat Ali once and lost to him twice... Ali stopped Frazier, he couldn't stop Norton. They were both stopped in 2 rounds by Foreman. Frazier fought Foreman twice and was stopped in 5 rounds in their rematch. They both stopped Quarry... Frazier x2. Norton lost a SD to Holmes. Frazier never faced Holmes... or Shavers, or Cooney. Norton beat Young... Frazier never faced Young. It's a toss up IMO. They knew each other well and were friends. They boxed eash other a lot in teh gym... sometimes Frazier won, sometimes Norton won.