What's more likely..Dempsey beating Ali or Rocky beating Foreman ?

Many fighters have a different interpretation to this claim. I'd argue a sharper, more pin-point puncher (With some power, as Walcott had) can in many ways be much more dangerous, particularly against a Marciano type. Obviously styles make fights. Maybe Marciano gets bounced around like a pinball as Frazier did. I don't envision quite this scenario. Marciano's defense was different. He might be set off, but he got low and off the attacking line and wasn't as vulnerable to the uppercut as Frazier was. Your unflappable belief that the 215 version of Frazier in Jamaica was better than ant Marciano is not merely humorous, but reflective of the dichotomous nature of your postings.

A wise edit or Seamus can't be bothered. The point of this thread is which scenario is more likely, and there's nothing overly apparent with one choice over the other. Yes, styles point toward one answer, but then there's a skill disparity. On the other hand, styles point to one answer being clearly inferior, but there's not a skills disparity, and possibly one in the other direction.

 

Both guys have a chance. Foreman to me is the more beatable of the two, so I would say Rocky has the best chance to win.

 

An unfortunate editing mistake and whiskey led me to losing my most erudite post in months.

No time for crying over spilt milk.

Marciano's defense is underrated by average simp, but the simp who goes beyond his own intellectual calling overrates Marciano's defensive ability. He got HIT A LOT. And he got staggered and dropped by old small heavies and lighheavies. Against a prime Foreman he has two choices: march forward in his usual style to a sure death or try fighting in retreat and get slaughtered over the rounds. A grand disparity in physical gifts as relates to he heavyweight division.

 

Just like Lyle would have no chance against Big George?

This is the same Lyle, by the way, who got schooled by an old Jerry Quarry - whom Marciano is superior to in every way.

Let's get one thing straight. Marciano is no Frazier. And neither is Dempsey, for that matter. There are some similarities but also important differences. For one, Marciano is significantly more durable than Frazier. He's also a harder hitter with power in both hands, whereas Frazier basically only had the left. These are crucial differences in standing a chance against Foreman.

For those saying that Marciano got floored by Walcott, let's not underestimate Walcott's power. He knocked out a prime Ezzard Charles with a single uppercut. Charles was very durable: didn't get KO'd a single time against the likes of Elmer Ray, all time KO artist Archie Moore (3x), Satterfield, old Louis, Layne, Valdez and others. Up until Walcott he'd only been TKO'd once, fighting very often and a very high level of opposition. Getting knocked down by Walcott is nothing to be ashamed of (ask Joe Louis).

It's not like he got knocked down by Jimmy Young..

 

Lyle didn't fight one little bit like Marciano

 

Nicely demonstrated as was Foreman's ability to splat those aggressive types, to happily digest the greasy theorem that he would do the same to every great bulldozer requires a big (arguably stupid) leap of faith.

Nobody could say for certain how Foreman would react to a Dempsey hook or Marciano cross; common sense suggests he wouldn't like them - it's a genuine possibility that he'd go all gooey if caught square.

The classic retort is to pull that 190lbs card, thereby linking each great to an average man of 190lbs, but weight can only be used so much in conjunction with men who proved that weight was not a problem.

Lest we forget Marciano was taught to fight small - it's not unreasonable to propose a winning battle in which Rocky gets inside those wide swings and turns his opponent inside out.

 

So, we are to believe Rocky was a once in a century talent, a power punching, come-forward 185 pounder with a 67" reach who, though it was never actually proven in the ring, still possessed the ability to beat 225 pound elite power punchers in their prime?

How long will I have to wait to see such a fighter emerge in today's game?

 

I could possibly see him Rocky beating Foreman.. Possibly. I'm no boxing expert though, i don't know half of what you people know.

I like Dempsey, but he couldn't beat Ali.

 

The thing is Seamus, were discussing which out of two highly improbable outcomes is more likely. I wouldn't bet a dime on the Rock beating Foreman despite being a huge fan. Put simply I see Rocky as better than Dempsey and Foreman more flawed than Ali. Rocky has to overcome strength, size, alot of aggression and a very good chin. Dempsey has to overcome size, speed, movement, skill, stamina a great chin and Ali's signicant reach advantage and accurate punching.

 

Yeah, it's skinny picking either way.

I just think that Dempsey's positives, aggressive, fast left hooker who came to kill, match up slightly better against Ali's negatives than the Marciano's positives match to Foreman. And Dempsey wasn't that much shorter or slower or less long than Ali. At least he was in the ballpark.

Still, both are very longshots. Totally agree.

 

What's the proof that it's significantly more? Frazier proved himself plenty tough and it's not like Marciano met a vast array of murderous punchers or anything.


The size and strength difference would be too much for Rocky, and it's not like Marciano is going to get on his toes and have Foreman chase him around the ring. Foreman would shove him around and club him down in a couple rounds. Seriously, a Foreman shove would probably put Rocky on his ass.


Dempsey isn't beating Ali, either, but his chances there are the better of the two.

 

Today's weight classes, finely cut up as they are, have diluted the potential for the smaller man to utilise his natural advantages in speed, agility and stamina. Cruiserweights aren't inured to tackling bigger men, and so every time David sips between the ropes he's minus a sling.

Genuine tenacity has been milked out of the heavyweight division which has led to a stagnation of styles.

This doesn't explain how a fantasy fight between Marciano and Foreman would play out, but it does coincide with the backlash people get for starting such threads; alas, a measuring tape won't explain a chemical reaction.

The possibly remains that Foreman squashes Marciano, but that only a few dare to hint at the opposite shows a blind allegiance with the unknown.

And yes, it is also probable that Marciano was an exception, so there should at least be a little consideration before we happily dress him up as scrawny fodder.

 

Problem for Marciano against George ((besides the obvious) is that Rocky didn't have the greatest survival instincts. He didn't need them when he fought, because he could outfight pretty much anyone he faced.
But George is a fearsome proposition for anyone with Marciano's style and relative lack of size. As Frazier, another one without great survival instincts, found out.

Nah...I love Rocky and all, but a fight with George is all wrong for him.

 

Still, there are paltry sums to be made at cruiserweight and comparatively vast sums at heavyweight. The impetus is there in spades for the smaller fighter to exploit his speed, agility and stamina. I just think the goalposts have been moved too far down the field to make it a reasonable undertaking. The bulk of the elite heavies are simply bigger than they were decades ago. Looking at the top-10 annual rankings from 1958, only one heavyweight weighed in over 200 pounds... only one. That is inconceivable today.

I have wondered recently whether the division has reached a sort of detente. It is easy to get clocked by even mediocre large opponents. A safety first approach by a larger, more skilled fighter bears better fruits over the long run.

Marciano was a strong, fit, tough, dedicated fighter. He had the gift of power. However, I don't see many exceptional gifts beyond that. The rest was hard work, focus and toughness (maybe its own gift).

It seems a little tedious to argue after a while. I give both Dempsey and Marciano little chance to win their respective match-ups... just I give Marciano even a smaller chance.

 

I hear you, Bummy. People also forget that Marciano knocked out Carmine Vingo, who was huge, and in one of his early fights, Marciano knocked out a guy who was 6'4" and weighed 254. Foreman never fought anyone with Marciano's iron chin, iron will and punching power--Marciano's punching power was freakish, for a man of his size, especially. Marciano, on the other hand, handily defeated heavyweights that outweighed him by over forty pounds. Also, Marciano threw an average of 85 punches a round, something no heavyweight before or since has ever matched. Foreman hated fighting over five rounds, to boot.