Ali-Liston I, II - fixed?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Trixie, Dec 20, 2009.



  1. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Absolutely. You're good and you argue well. I'm not quite as hard-headed as I may appear though. Almost, but not quite!

    You "know" that the punch was a good one about as much as I "know" that it wasn't. This is about weight of argument, not fact. All of it.

    Cleveland Williams? He wasn't nearly as durable as Liston. He had been down at least 8 times by the time he fought Ali and was about half what he used to be. The man got shot by the cops before this bout!

    The fact that he went down similarily to Liston is unconvincing as evidence. How else shall a man fall forward? Asking Liston to bounce on his nose like Duran in the Hearns fight is a little much...for example.

    Speculation is all we have. That has been acknowledged. Your position is that "Ali was good enough to legitimately floor Liston Ali and give him the chance to do what he had to do." My position is just as speculative, though I believe more sensible: Liston had to go down and take the count in round 1, he found the opportunity and proceeded to act badly, as if he were too hurt to get up before 10.

    You believe that Ali provided the chance to make the dive more believable (if I understand you right), I think that would be one helluva stroke of luck for Liston, and Liston was one unlucky man!

    Liston had a motive to concoct a story even more than the forward-thinking Dundee and Ali. Liston's 'provided the plot' if you will, and all three had reason to cooperate to make the fight seem on the level.

    Just for the record... I'm not one who appreciated Oliver Stone's JFK or any conspiracy theory out there. I don't believe in UFOs, Nessie, Bigfoot, or the Abominable Snowman. That fiasco in Maine, though, struck me and almost everyone else as exactly that... a fiasco. Knowing Liston's well-known connections and problems and history and the reality of the boxing scene around this time, it seems pretty clear to me what seems to have happened.

    Okay, but remember that all parties are not going to attach a story that doesn't coincide with the film...

    Liston said that he wouldn't get up with Ali standing over him. That doesn't match the film. I don't see a man peeking, I see a man acting.

    Liston is not going to tell Torres that he was told to lay down, so it makes perfect sense that he'd say he "never saw" the punch.

    Statements about crazy prisoners could have been the source for Dundee's story. The problem with using this to argue that Liston was afraid of Ali is basic. Ali was a civilian, he was not a convicted felon who would eat your liver with fava beans. Dundee remembered Liston yelling "you crazy *******" when Ali drove up on his lawn. Liston also had a poker in his hand and was walking towards Ali. That's not enough to provide any kind of case that Liston was afraid of Muhammad Ali. no one was afraid of muhammad ali! He never tried to be feared.

    Liston's admitting that he was afraid of crazy prisoners has nothing to do with Liston being afraid of a "big-mouthed kid." Ali was not intimidating, and he was not trying to be intimidating -he was trying to psych out Liston by acting like a clown. Liston wrote Clay off as someone "masquerading as a fighter" who he would finish off in 2 rounds.

    Ali seemed more shocked than anyone that Liston went down. Liston was known to have a granite chin. Ali was circling and moving and countering, laying traps sure, but laying a trap with the expressed purpose to drop him? Nah. I don't buy it. Ali then reacted like a kid on Christmas morning who got a new pony.

    We don't need evidence to dismiss anyone's assertions. And Ali's well-earned status as the greatest of the heavyweights doesn't preclude calling him on his nonsense as much as we rightfully credit him for his prophecies and courage.

    ...........Jose Torres: "Ali was good for bullshitting himself."
     
  2. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Perhaps I'm all alone in the ESB world, but I would dispute that the shot was hard enough to drop Sonny Liston.
     
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No no, I don't think it was hard enough to drop Sonny neccessarily. My point was, showing the film just shows Liston getting hit with a hard punch. What would his remit be if he was told to go down in round one? Fall to the first hard punch that connects.
     
  4. Mr Butt

    Mr Butt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    first fight no i dont think so

    second fight maybe not sure
     
  5. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Got it. And that seems plain to no one but us.

    Theoretical, yes, but it seems to be the soundest theory around.
     
  6. groove

    groove Well-Known Member Full Member

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    u know it's so very easy to be a critic. so easy u wouldn't believe.
     
  7. Addie

    Addie Myung Woo Yuh! Full Member

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    It's not even a talking point to me. There's simply no way in hell the first fight was a fix, Ali outclassed him. The phantom punch was a shot that Liston did not see, and it knocked him down. Liston could have gotten up, and the fight could have continued, but if he did, it would have just been a one sided drubbing until he was legitimately knocked out. Liston knew it.

    ...Ali was on a different plane.
     
  8. prime

    prime BOX! Writing Champion Full Member

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    Great compliment from a guy good enough to get paid for what he writes!

    Chuckle, chuckle!

    You're right about Ali not inspiring fear. Most counterintuitive for the king and thus supposedly baddest of all heavyweights! I believe it was Kareem Abdul-Jabbar who said Ali could knock at anyone's front door at 3 a.m. and people would say, "Hey, look, it's Muhammad Ali!", and come right out. But you wouldn't want Mike Tyson coming to your front porch at three o'clock in the morning.

    Of course Liston the champion sniffed at Clay as an opponent! 'Enry's Hammer had just dropped the nut, not to mention the casino incident. But, after six rounds-plus with the guy, Ali had by then grown into Liston's unquestioned superior inside the ring. And, based on Liston's own words I have previously quoted, I consider it perfectly believable that Sonny was wary of the flighty Ali's running over on those wickedly fast long legs and clobbering him while on one glove and knee before the feckless Walcott could do a thing.

    - - -

    I put forward this tentative consensus: first fight on level; second, an Ali prepared to make a legitimate defense of his crown hits Liston and the latter either decides to quit then and there, or uses the moment to execute a self-prescribed, or otherwise-prescribed, dive.
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  9. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Humbug. For all we know, you're Barney Nagler re-animated. And that goes for another half-dozen or so posters on ESB.

    I can live with that.

    Another illumination not often remembered is how hard Liston trained for the Boston Garden rematch in November, 1964. Ali had a medical emergency three days -THREE DAYS before the fight and the fight was called off. I can't imagine how disappointed Liston was at that news. He's on record as being enormously let down. And Liston wasn't exactly a man of character, a man of great resilience. Tough, strong, powerful, but he suffers in the intangibles category... In the fall of '64, the man was holed up down in South Plymouth at the White Cliffs resort, was pummeling sparring partners and was extra-mean. And then, poof, all that training goes down the drain. Ali himself was sorry for it, but especially sorry for Liston. He (respectfully) brought up his age and ability to get so motivated and inspired again.

    Liston absolutely dissipated after that --he was in jail in Denver on Christmas, and just drank like a fish. I think that the weakening tentacles who had him in their grip just cashed in on him and told him to take a dive and washed their hands of him. You're alternative is not implausable though.

    And this is all speculative... though interesting.
     
  10. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    no and no

    As for the rematch... The ref (Jersey Joe Walcott) should have never listened to Nat Fleischer (who was ringside and pointed out that Liston had been down for more than 10 seconds). It doesn't matter is a fighter is down for 3 days... if the ref is only on 7, than the count is 7.

    Liston had gotten up and the fight had continued (Liston didn't throw anymore punches though), Nat started shouting and the fight was stopped.
     
  11. nikrj

    nikrj Active Member Full Member

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    Second fight was fixed.
     
  12. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    First fight may have been fixed.

    Second fight was definitely a fix. Joe Walcott was part of the fix.
     
  13. groove

    groove Well-Known Member Full Member

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    conjecture and speculation. accusing Walcott of being part of a fix. yeah right lol.
     
  14. Shake

    Shake Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I rarely see any discussion about the referee in Ali-Liston II. Liston did get up to continue to fight, and then the referee overruled his own counting in favor of the timekeeper.

    Yet he never seems implicated. Seems like a rather odd thing to happen. If it was fixed, it's a suspicious way to do it, and if it is coincidental, it's one hell of a coincidence.

    Is it possible the fight was on the level and Liston was just waiting for the raging Ali to go to a neutral corner?
     
  15. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Liston got up exactly when he was supposed to- when Ali finally went to a neutral corner.

    Liston was not counted out. He was up within a couple of seconds of the timekeepers count beginning.
    There was no knockout. Liston did not legitimately lose that fight and Ali did not win it. It should be reclassified as an NC.

    Walcott had spent 30 years in the ring. He knew exactly how the neutral corner rule applied.

    It was an idiot call and he knew better.

    Why did he do it?
    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

    There is no other sane explanation.